All Things Illyria

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Postby Moscow Watcher » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:38 pm

Scott Tipton wrote:If you've read a couple interviews I've done here or there, you may have read that Elena Casagrande and I were going to follow up our "Hole in the World" mini with an adaptation of "Orpheus" that wound up not happening for reasons too dull to get into here.

Anyway, since we had a little more room to play in that one compared to "Hole," we were going to get to add a few new scenes, and one of the things Elena and I were looking forward to most was playing with that Willow/Fred dynamic. We had the scenes plotted out and everything, and I think the first one even made it all the way to script.

Sigh...

Scott, it's very annoying that you couldn't adapt "Orpheus". It could be a great graphic novel. The material is so rich and rewarding.

Back to Illyria - I vaguely remember rumors that, if season 6 would've happened on TV, Joss would've explored Illyria/Fred duality, as a metaphor of science that puts itself above good and evil.

It pains me to say good-bye to IDW's Illyria, but, at the same time, I look forward to Joss' take on her. And, knowing Joss' disposition towards torturing his characters I feel for Illyria in advance.
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Postby nmcil12 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:12 am

pshand05 wrote:Whedon didn't stop her progression. The best example of her progression in the TV series is "Not Fade Away" and that's was the last episode. He was pushing her forward until the very end of the show, and the only reason it stopped was because the story stopped.


If Illyria did not have the potential to care or connect with humanity there would never have been, IMO, that heart breaking scene at Wesley's death. Illyria also showed her understanding of humanity and power structures in her discussions with Angel about Power and Leaders.

I personally like the transformation of Illyria - they connect with her history in the TV Era and offer new roles for the character. Illyria as a potential God Care Taker for all the world, not just humanity, I think has a great potential for what happens in the future for the Buffy and Angel realms.
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Postby dorotea » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:12 am

According to Allie 'Joss wants to get his hands on Illyria'. I , for one, is pretty much excited about it. Whatever JW does to the character - we shall see. I hope for return to 'normal' Illyria though - and if Angel's actuions in 44 will prevent the 'bad future' it will be natural for the changes in Illyria to be reversed too.
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Postby fluff » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:14 am

But those Illyria changes you speak of didn't happen in the bad future, they happened sometime before Spike #1 started. How Illyria acts in that future is a consequence of that. JW might have done some bad choices for the characters in S8 but I doubt he's that much of a jerk to completely disregard everything that happened to a character, be it Illyria or Angel or anyone else IDW developed in their arc.
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Postby dorotea » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:37 am

fluff wrote:But those Illyria changes you speak of didn't happen in the bad future, they happened sometime before Spike #1 started. How Illyria acts in that future is a consequence of that. JW might have done some bad choices for the characters in S8 but I doubt he's that much of a jerk to completely disregard everything that happened to a character, be it Illyria or Angel or anyone else IDW developed in their arc.


Oh, I am certain JW will disregard anything that he did not dictate or wrote in his notes exclusively - and even then some (Re : Warren 'resurrection' ?). And the future reverse about to happen in the beginning of S8 pretty much gives them a blank slate to do away with everything they want to between AtF and S8 - except the Space bugs and Willow's trip to Vegas. Sometimes Joss does very sordid things. Not that I would want everything to go, but... it is possible, I think.
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Postby fluff » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:56 am

I'm pretty sure one of the many interviews said that what happened in the IDW comics remains a part of the characters' pastr, pre S8 and that season 9 deals with post S8. Maybe you should stop dissing everything you don't like, for once, and stop acting as if everyone else is stupid because things will happen the way you want them to happen and your way is the only right way?
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Postby dorotea » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:04 am

fluff wrote:I'm pretty sure one of the many interviews said that what happened in the IDW comics remains a part of the characters' pastr, pre S8 and that season 9 deals with post S8. Maybe you should stop dissing everything you don't like, for once, and stop acting as if everyone else is stupid because things will happen the way you want them to happen and your way is the only right way?


Hmm, this does sound like a personal attack to me actually. Sorry for provoking you, if you perceived it as such, but I would rather stick with discussing the story - even what I imagine about the story is still legitimate enough - because it is about the story , not about personalities.
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Postby fluff » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:17 am

dorotea wrote:
fluff wrote:I'm pretty sure one of the many interviews said that what happened in the IDW comics remains a part of the characters' pastr, pre S8 and that season 9 deals with post S8. Maybe you should stop dissing everything you don't like, for once, and stop acting as if everyone else is stupid because things will happen the way you want them to happen and your way is the only right way?


Hmm, this does sound like a personal attack to me actually. Sorry for provoking you, if you perceived it as such, but I would rather stick with discussing the story - even what I imagine about the story is still legitimate enough - because it is about the story , not about personalities.


Each time you discuss the story, you appear to like making everyone else feel bad or stupid for not thinking the same way you do, because JW will do things your way in the end. I discussed the story plenty. When you claimed that JW never wanted to have Illyria develop and become *gasp* more human, me and others have pointed out to how much she changed in the series. But your responses are always along the way of "as if it matters, JW will erase everything anyway".

I might disagree with a lot of things people love but I respect what they like. And I might hate what was done in season 8 but I don't bash it mercilessly. I think that just the way in which IDW adapted their story to make room for Twilight, JW and Dark Horse will show respect for what IDW did. From what I gathered, nothing was done that JW would have protested against (I distinctly recall Mariah saying that they didn't go into any detail on Fred's soul because that was Joss' territory to explore). What's to say that Joss didn't give an OK to Illyria and Spike's development and that now he's antsy to get his hands on her because what IDW did gives him a great start for anything he had in store for her?

Again, I ask (if I didn't before): just what is so tragic in the fact that a character developed?
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Postby dorotea » Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:40 am

fluff wrote:

Again, I ask (if I didn't before): just what is so tragic in the fact that a character developed?


It does not matter to me that the character 'developed' - what does matter however , is that it developed 'organically' - to both its past, and the show/story's past and general atmosphere, which for Whedon's show is a very dark one. Alas, my perception of 'organic growth' is different from yours. It does not mean I think that you are stupider than me - it just means that I have a different personality and my standards are different. I try to explain 'how' different they are - not how much better they are, that's all. Color me liking things being more controversial and less harmonic. For example , I dislike musicals and melodrama. It is just a personality trait.
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Postby pshand05 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:01 pm

Wait a second, so you don't like the development of Illyria in these comics, dorotea?

On a serious note, guys, I think this is getting no where fast. A bunch of people loved what happened. Some didn't. People are all sorts of adamant and whatnot. Let's just agree to disagree, because I doubt if I'm the only person getting dizzy reading these back-and-forths.

How about we chat more about the story? The TPB comes out in May, and I'm sure as hell looking forward to reading the thing in one sitting.
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Postby nmcil12 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:25 pm

pshand05 wrote:Wait a second, so you don't like the development of Illyria in these comics, dorotea?

On a serious note, guys, I think this is getting no where fast. A bunch of people loved what happened. Some didn't. People are all sorts of adamant and whatnot. Let's just agree to disagree, because I doubt if I'm the only person getting dizzy reading these back-and-forths.

How about we chat more about the story? The TPB comes out in May, and I'm sure as hell looking forward to reading the thing in one sitting.


I am looking forward to the TPB - and I very much like the changes that Illyria experienced, both getting her lost powers and this new connection with the natural world and all its life forms.

I hope that Joss Whedon will use Illyria to explore how humans create their individual realities and how a much greater power understands humans beings.
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Postby DanielW » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:05 pm

I suspect that Illyria will form part of the "humanity versus power" dichotomy inherent in Buffy and Angel, about what point do you stop being defined by your humanity and start being defined by your power/s, and what effect having powers has on your humanity from the opposite direction as Buffy, whereas Buffy is a human with powers, Illyria is effectively a power set with a bit of humanity.

It could be interesting to put Illyria with Willow actually, rather then Buffy, as unlike the Slayer, both Illyria and Willow have the power to destroy or remake the world.
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Postby fluff » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:27 pm

DanielW wrote:
It could be interesting to put Illyria with Willow actually, rather then Buffy, as unlike the Slayer, both Illyria and Willow have the power to destroy or remake the world.


Oooh, that would be interesting.

What with magic having been destroyed, do you guys figure Illyria would have kept her connection with the earth and the power to time-travel and open portals? I'm constantly fuzzy about that the breaking of the Seed implies but if Buffy is still a Slayer, then should Illyria have her powers too?
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Postby DanielW » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:35 pm

fluff wrote:
DanielW wrote:
It could be interesting to put Illyria with Willow actually, rather then Buffy, as unlike the Slayer, both Illyria and Willow have the power to destroy or remake the world.


Oooh, that would be interesting.

What with magic having been destroyed, do you guys figure Illyria would have kept her connection with the earth and the power to time-travel and open portals? I'm constantly fuzzy about that the breaking of the Seed implies but if Buffy is still a Slayer, then should Illyria have her powers too?

Illyria is IIRC older then magic. Jasmine was, after all, older then magic and Illyria is older then Jasmine.
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Postby pshand05 » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:01 am

As my BCR blog winds down, I'm taking a look at how the various IDW Angel series ends. This one takes a look at where Illyria started and where these comics took her, paying particular attention to ILLYRIA: HAUNTED.

http://buffyversecomics.blogspot.com/20 ... ct-on.html
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