Angel Mini-series discussion

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Angel Mini-series discussion

Postby JSPoole » Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:00 pm

I realised I havent really discussed much with you guys about minis outside the main angel series.

what do you guys think of these (and any others you can name?). Ill give brief thoughts for now just to get the topic started

spike vs dracula- I thought this was a great mini that turned a one liner in the show into a rather good jaunt through spike's history, and the buffy/angel verse history to boot. Peter David is a great writer.

angel- only human: I really enjoyed this- I am a fan of lobdell since his age of apocalypse arc in x men really got me into the medium good and proper.

angel vs frankenstein- like spike vs dracula, takes what could be a silly concept and turns it into a decent little yarn (at least for how short it is).

angel- blood and trenches: LOVED this...the irony of the ending, seeing angel cross paths with a familiar family...and the art was beautiful and striking, with only constrasting white and blood red being striking.

spike: shadow puppets great story, great humour- I again intially saw this as pandering to spike fans (''wahh angel gets a puppet story, why not spike, waa'') but boy was I wrong. My first lynch story I read, and I knew he was the one writer I would want on an angel series.
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Postby Allycat » Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:46 am

Angel: Barbary Coast - now here's a writer who gets Angel's voice perfectly. He is to Angel, what Brian is to Spike.
Angel: Blood & Trenches - haven't read it, but hearing good things, so might pick it up; what's the status on its canonicity?
Angel vs Frankenstein - haven't read it, but hearing good things, so might pick it up; what's the status on its canonicity?
Angel: Only Human - was okay, but not great imho.


Spike: After the Fall - Brian's work, so great of course and an integral part of the After the Fall story.
Spike: Asylum - haven't read it, but Brian is great, I ordered the TPB so I can read it before the on-going starts.
Spike: The Devil You Know - we're 2 issues into it and it's been great so far!
Spike vs Dracula - as a pre-AtF canon series, I never read it.
Spike: Shadow Puppets - haven't read it, but Brian is great, I ordered the TPB so I can read it before the on-going starts.
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Postby JSPoole » Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:51 am

Allycat wrote:Angel: Barbary Coast - now here's a writer who gets Angel's voice perfectly. He is to Angel, what Brian is to Spike.
Angel: Blood & Trenches - haven't read it, but hearing good things, so might pick it up; what's the status on its canonicity?
Angel vs Frankenstein - haven't read it, but hearing good things, so might pick it up; what's the status on its canonicity?
Angel: Only Human - was okay, but not great imho.


Spike: After the Fall - Brian's work, so great of course and an integral part of the After the Fall story.
Spike: Asylum - haven't read it, but Brian is great, I ordered the TPB so I can read it before the on-going starts.
Spike: The Devil You Know - we're 2 issues into it and it's been great so far!
Spike vs Dracula - as a pre-AtF canon series, I never read it.
Spike: Shadow Puppets - haven't read it, but Brian is great, I ordered the TPB so I can read it before the on-going starts.



Thanks for your reply :)

can you tell me more about your thoughts on spike : devil you know and barbary coast? Im waiting for the trades so no spoilers please- but I'd love to know your thoughts on it.

I don't know if spike vs dracula is cannon or not- but I HIGHLY reccomend it. Peter David is a fantastic writer - I promise you, aside from lynch and scott tipton, he is the only other person I would love to see permenantly on the angel title. Trust me on this one- I think you would dig it

also not sure about AVF or Blood and Trenches canon status- I do know they are definitly worth the read, especially blood and trenches.

Looking forward to seeing what you make of the spike stuff from lynch- it's why I think the spike series will be so great.
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Re: Angel Mini-series discussion

Postby Double Dutchess » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:22 am

JSPoole wrote:spike vs dracula- I thought this was a great mini that turned a one liner in the show into a rather good jaunt through spike's history, and the buffy/angel verse history to boot. Peter David is a great writer.


I liked it a lot too, among other things because it was nice to see some Darla/Spike interaction. One thing I wasn't happy with were the changes in artists; the differences between art styles were quite jarring and some of the art I didn't like at all.

angel- only human: I really enjoyed this- I am a fan of lobdell since his age of apocalypse arc in x men really got me into the medium good and proper.


I enjoyed it, both story and art, but I would have liked to get more insight into what Illyria got out of the experience. (Hopefully we'll get that in the new Illyria mini-series that was announced at SDCC.) To read more about what others thought, see these threads: Only Human #1 - Only Human #2 - Only Human #3 - Only Human #4 - Only Human #5.

angel vs frankenstein- like spike vs dracula, takes what could be a silly concept and turns it into a decent little yarn (at least for how short it is).


I haven't read this one, but here is what others have said: Angel vs Frankenstein

angel- blood and trenches: LOVED this...the irony of the ending, seeing angel cross paths with a familiar family...and the art was beautiful and striking, with only constrasting white and blood red being striking.


I loved the art too! Very good and original choice to do it all in grays and whites with the occasional splotch of red. Here is more of what I think about the TPB. And others' comments about the single issues: Blood and Trenches #1 - Blood and Trenches #2 - Blood and Trenches #3 - Blood and Trenches #4

spike: shadow puppets great story, great humour- I again intially saw this as pandering to spike fans (''wahh angel gets a puppet story, why not spike, waa'') but boy was I wrong. My first lynch story I read, and I knew he was the one writer I would want on an angel series.


Weird, I'm one of those whiny Spike fans but the thought that Spike should have his own puppet story never even occcurred to me before I heard about Shadow Puppets. Anyway, it's probably needless to say I loved it. A lot of humour, great Spike/Lorne interaction, a wonderful new character (Tok), ninja puppets... What more could anyone want? And judging from the length of its thread on this forum, I think others liked it too: Shadow Puppets

I loved Asylum even more though.

About the canon issue: nothing from IDW except AtF is canon. (If the definition of canon is that Joss Whedon was involved.)
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Postby Allycat » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:21 am

Angel: Barbary Coast is mostly a stand-alone adventure from back in the old days. Franco Urru does the art. His style is quite dark; he rarely makes things beautiful, but that fits the title really well. The writer got Angel's voice perfectly. As I said before, he is to Angel, what Lynch is to Spike.

Spike: The Devil You Know ties in to the main story. It features Spike and Eddie Hope (from the back-up strips) as the main protagonists. Just where we need to place this story continuity-wise remains to be seen. The plot might be related to the main plot, but it might also not. (I'm guessing the later.) It helps build the character of Eddie some more and further expands on how Spike is behaving right now (special circumstances cause him to be a sort of a jack***). The art in the first issue is a bit cartoon-y. The second issue looks better, but maybe that's me getting used to it.
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Postby Spacediva70 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Allycat wrote:Angel: Barbary Coast - now here's a writer who gets Angel's voice perfectly. He is to Angel, what Brian is to Spike.
Angel: Blood & Trenches - haven't read it, but hearing good things, so might pick it up; what's the status on its canonicity?
Angel vs Frankenstein - haven't read it, but hearing good things, so might pick it up; what's the status on its canonicity?
Angel: Only Human - was okay, but not great imho.


Spike: After the Fall - Brian's work, so great of course and an integral part of the After the Fall story.
Spike: Asylum - haven't read it, but Brian is great, I ordered the TPB so I can read it before the on-going starts.
Spike: The Devil You Know - we're 2 issues into it and it's been great so far!
Spike vs Dracula - as a pre-AtF canon series, I never read it.
Spike: Shadow Puppets - haven't read it, but Brian is great, I ordered the TPB so I can read it before the on-going starts.


Here is my list. I need to catch up a bit:)

Angel: Barbary Coast - Haven't read yet but will be checking out soon:)
Angel: Blood & Trenches - Haven't read yet.
Angel vs Frankenstein - Haven't read yet but must be good if they at making a part two:)
Angel: Only Human - Read it and liked it.


Spike: After the Fall - Read it and loved it! I thought it added a lot of emotional impact to the main story.
Spike: Asylum - I read it before ATF and loved it. It is a fun read and I would actually recommend reading it before the new Spike series starts because it introduces a supporting cast (a really good one) that is exclusively Spike's.
Spike: The Devil You Know - Read the story so far and have liked it.
Spike vs Dracula - Haven't read it.
Spike: Shadow Puppets - Read it and it is more comedic and light than Asylum and ATF. A real fun read.
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Postby Veiriti » Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:13 pm

Spacediva70 wrote:
Allycat wrote:Angel: Barbary Coast - now here's a writer who gets Angel's voice perfectly. He is to Angel, what Brian is to Spike.
Angel: Blood & Trenches - haven't read it, but hearing good things, so might pick it up; what's the status on its canonicity?
Angel vs Frankenstein - haven't read it, but hearing good things, so might pick it up; what's the status on its canonicity?
Angel: Only Human - was okay, but not great imho.


Spike: After the Fall - Brian's work, so great of course and an integral part of the After the Fall story.
Spike: Asylum - haven't read it, but Brian is great, I ordered the TPB so I can read it before the on-going starts.
Spike: The Devil You Know - we're 2 issues into it and it's been great so far!
Spike vs Dracula - as a pre-AtF canon series, I never read it.
Spike: Shadow Puppets - haven't read it, but Brian is great, I ordered the TPB so I can read it before the on-going starts.


Here is my list. I need to catch up a bit:)

Angel: Barbary Coast - Haven't read yet but will be checking out soon:)
Angel: Blood & Trenches - Haven't read yet.
Angel vs Frankenstein - Haven't read yet but must be good if they at making a part two:)
Angel: Only Human - Read it and liked it.


Spike: After the Fall - Read it and loved it! I thought it added a lot of emotional impact to the main story.
Spike: Asylum - I read it before ATF and loved it. It is a fun read and I would actually recommend reading it before the new Spike series starts because it introduces a supporting cast (a really good one) that is exclusively Spike's.
Spike: The Devil You Know - Read the story so far and have liked it.
Spike vs Dracula - Haven't read it.
Spike: Shadow Puppets - Read it and it is more comedic and light than Asylum and ATF. A real fun read.


I have got all of these (except Angel: Blood & Trenches, Angel: Barbary Coast, Spike: The Devil You Know - I've pre-ordered the last 2 tiles and I'll receive them in the end of October, I hope :) ) And I have got some of the old IDW Spike-Angel TPB:
Angel: The Curse - Angel goes to Romania to find a solution of his "soul problem". No one of his team is with him, Cordy,Darla, Wes, Gunn, Fred/Illyria, Spike and Dru make short aperances as flashbacks. Written by Jeff Mariotte, Art by David Messina.
Angel: Auld Lang Syne Absolutely loved it - awesome Spike-Angel interaction and dynamic! Written by- Scott Tipton, art by David Messina and Elena Casagrande
Angel: Old Friends - Angel, Spike, Illyria, Gunn and Lorne meet their evil doubles. Loved the storyline - the idea about the evil doubles vs the real team was great! Written by Jeff Mariotte, Art by David Messina.

Spike: Old Times - Spike meets Cecily-Halfrek again. Written by Peter David, art by Fernando Goni
Spike: Old Wounds - During the season 5 of Angel. Includes the whole Angel's team. Flashback to Spike's past in LA 1947. Absolutely loved the storyline!! Written by Scott Tipton, art by Fernando Goni
Spike: Lost And Found - Spike and Angel on the trail of the second ring of Amarra. During the season 5 of Angel again. Harmony has got a second ring of Amarra but sold it out on Ebay. :D Loved it! Written by Scott Tipton, art by Fernando Goni The art of Fernando Goni is brilliant! :D
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Postby Double Dutchess » Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:16 pm

Veiriti wrote:And I have got some of the old IDW Spike-Angel TPB:
Angel: The Curse - Angel goes to Romania to find a solution of his "soul problem". No one of his team is with him, Cordy,Darla, Wes, Gunn, Fred/Illyria, Spike and Dru make short aperances as flashbacks. Written by Jeff Mariotte, Art by David Messina.
Angel: Auld Lang Syne Absolutely loved it - awesome Spike-Angel interaction and dynamic! Written by- Scott Tipton, art by David Messina and Elena Casagrande
Angel: Old Friends - Angel, Spike, Illyria, Gunn and Lorne meet their evil doubles. Loved the storyline - the idea about the evil doubles vs the real team was great! Written by Jeff Mariotte, Art by David Messina.


Of these three, I really liked Auld Lang Syne. The Curse and Old Friends were just OK. (Also they are really not canon-compatible.) Messina's art is always great, of course.

Spike: Old Times - Spike meets Cecily-Halfrek again. Written by Peter David, art by Fernando Goni
Spike: Old Wounds - During the season 5 of Angel. Includes the whole Angel's team. Flashback to Spike's past in LA 1947. Absolutely loved the storyline!! Written by Scott Tipton, art by Fernando Goni
Spike: Lost And Found - Spike and Angel on the trail of the second ring of Amarra. During the season 5 of Angel again. Harmony has got a second ring of Amarra but sold it out on Ebay. :D Loved it! Written by Scott Tipton, art by Fernando Goni The art of Fernando Goni is brilliant! :D


I think I've said this before, but I don't like Goni's art at all. Yes, it's realistic, but not very creative. It's all just tracings. While reading the comics I kept thinking, "Which episode is this panel from?". Really distracting. But the stories are good. I particularly liked the first one, which offers some closure on the Cecily-Halfrek issue, and the third one. (Harmony selling the second gem on e-Bay! Now that's what I call brilliant.)
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Re: Angel Mini-series discussion

Postby anca » Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:44 am

Double Dutchess wrote:Weird, I'm one of those whiny Spike fans but the thought that Spike should have his own puppet story never even occcurred to me before I heard about Shadow Puppets. Anyway, it's probably needless to say I loved it. A lot of humour, great Spike/Lorne interaction, a wonderful new character (Tok), ninja puppets... What more could anyone want? And judging from the length of its thread on this forum, I think others liked it too: Shadow Puppets

You just made me spent a few hours reading that thread (and the really big numbers of linked posts within) and thank you for that. There were several things I've missed when reading the TPB and I've really enjoyed people reviews of the story.
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Re: Angel Mini-series discussion

Postby Spacediva70 » Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:03 pm

About the canon issue: nothing from IDW except AtF is canon. (If the definition of canon is that Joss Whedon was involved.)


My understanding is that all the comics are approved by Mutant Enemy - Joss' production company. I don't think they would approve something that Joss would have a problem with. But I personally think the whole canon debate is a little silly though. Joss didn't write and direct every episode of Buffy and Angel after all.
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Postby Drek » Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:07 pm

Official canon is kind of tricky. For the most part, whatever Joss says is canon, because it is his sandbox. That pretty much only leaves the tv series, IDW's ATF, DH's Season 8, and possibly the Buffy comic "The Origin" (see this http://www.cise.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/hsiao/buffy/get-archive?date=19990117 where Joss says that it can "pretty much" be accepted as canon). It gets trickier with things like Spike: Asylum where you have references to events in that story in ATF. Does that make it canon? Answer: Personally, I don't know and don't care.

I think most folks would be happier if they adopt their own personal definition of "canon" and not worry about whether or not it is official.

My own personal definition (called "my canon" rather than "official canon"): I like it and it doesn't explicitly contradict any of the things Joss has put his official seal of canonical approval on.

Make your own definition and be happy.


*edit* I left this out, but official canon also includes the trades Fray, Tales of the Slayers, Tales of the Vampires, and possibly part of the "Broken Bottle of Djinn" single comic issue.
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Postby Veiriti » Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:05 am

Personally I don't care are these stories cannon or not. I'm really enjoying reading them and I have got almost everything of the IDW series about Spike and Angel. And I love these stories more than the canonical Buffy season 8 comics. Actually I've dropped Buffy's series after the 3-th issue of Long Way to Go, when I've heard Spike wouldn't be a part of Buffy's story. Recently my interest is renewed again! :D
The cannon is not important for me, but the characterization is. And I'm very disappointed of the current Angel series... Not only Spike's characterization is wrong, but Illyria is not Illyria and Angel almost missing in his own tittle...
Now I'm re-reading the old Spike's series and I really love Scott Tipton's stories - I love the dynamic between Spike and Angel, especially in Auld Lang Syne :lol: And I hope Scott and Mariah will save Angel's series! :D

p.s. Double Ducthess - I love Goni's art - yeah is a bit distractive, but I love to being distracted by Spike! :lol:
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Postby Allycat » Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:52 am

I wish canon in the Buffyverse were set-up more akin to the StarWars Expanded Universe, where everything is true, as long as it doesn't contradict anything that's come before, with the exception that George (Joss) can contradict anything.

Although, it probably helps that different stories in SW have a greater distance both in time and place to each other than they have in Buffy. Still things like Tales of the Slayers/Vampire, Fray, but also the Angel flashback comics show that there's a lot of undiscovered areas of this universe inhabited by both known and unknown characters.
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Postby Veiriti » Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:14 pm

Still things like Tales of the Slayers/Vampire, Fray, but also the Angel flashback comics show that there's a lot of undiscovered areas of this universe inhabited by both known and unknown characters.

Yeah, I'm dying to see the adventures of The fanged Four! :lol: These four vampires were together for years - there are a lot of undiscovered areas and stories I think! :wink:
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Postby Double Dutchess » Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:49 pm

Drek wrote:My own personal definition (called "my canon" rather than "official canon"): I like it and it doesn't explicitly contradict any of the things Joss has put his official seal of canonical approval on.

Make your own definition and be happy.


Mine is pretty much the same as yours. I've never really understood the obsession with canon that some people have.
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