Jean-Vic wrote:You said that you're looking for consequences. Well, I consider 100 years of infinite remorse and loneliness a consequence. I consider burning in hell for 100+ years a consequence. I consider Angel losing his months old son a consequence. I consider Angel having his son return from hell and sink him to the bottom of the sea for three months a consequence. I consider Angel losing nearly every one of his friends a consequence. And I consider having to spend nearly every day in misery because of his guilt a consequence.
The problem with those examples are that they are not what you make them out to be. Angel did not have infinite remorse and loneliness for a 100y. He had the audacity to look down on humanity, unleash Lawson and damn a whole group of scared people. Burning in hell, a cause of his own actions. Losing his son, well that is either karma for the murdering of the thousends of childeren he did in the past(or hell just what he did to Holtz's family) or hazard of the biz he's working in. Just as Nikki chose the mission over her son so did Angel. He continued with his mission eventhough he could have just as easily packed up and provided a normal life for Connor, to clarify i don't see this as a bad deciscion on Angel's part, it's very admirable. But he made his choice. Losing his friends, again they were adults that chose to fight and believe in Angel's mission, except in season5. There the death of Fred and Wesley is partly to blame on Angel, he only came to w&h because of Connor, there he again chose his son over his friends which is to be expected.
And I don't mean this as a bash at Spike, but out of the two Angel has always shown more remorse for his crimes than Spike did and what to this date has Spike suffered? He lost Fred, sure, but in comparison to Angel, Gunn, Lorne and especially WES he felt no where near the same grief they did. Aside from that what has he lost?? Because I can't think of any way Spike has suffered. Why are Angel's actions so disgusting to you when you can understand Spike bragging, yes bragging, about killing slayers, actively seeking to fight and beat another one, and telling Robin Wood that he doesn't care about killing his mother? How can you claim Angel's actions are so evil when you have in the past tried to justify, to an extent, Spike's attempted rape of Buffy with the "he realised it was wrong and fought for a soul" line? It just doesn't make sense to me how you can be so critical of Angel but not Spike.
I don't know why you keep on bringing this back to Spike but i'll play.
Showing remorse means nothing and it isn't something that can be measured. Angel has suffered more mostly because of his own actions as i told you before, Spike is not Angel. Angel's faults are his own. It was not Spike that tried to end the world in season2, it was not Spike that unleashed Lawson, it was not Spike that killed Droghyn and started an apocalypse,ect.
How much suffering a person goes through is not what defines them as a hero/champion, i don't know were you get that from.
Why? Because those things happend 30years ago when Spike did not have a soul, if you payed attention you would notice that i only mention Angel's digusting actions that are really severe one's(like recently trying to end the world) or with a soul.
Spike's killing of Nikki was already settled in season7, out of all the killings he's done, that's probably the least bad ones. Because unlike all those others, this prey could fight back and was stronger then him. They came together as warriors, fought and he won. If Robin wanted an apology from Spike then he should have approched him like that, instead he just wanted revenge and to kill a person that doesn't excist anymore. Robin got what he deserved and he might be able to put issues to rest having a much clearer image of his mother on who and what she was. Spike was right, Nikki did love her son but the mission was more important.
Spike's actions can be partly justified because of his actions after what he did. If he didn't get a soul and just stayed in sunnydale in his crypt then i sure as hell wouldn't be a fan of the character. But the fact that he went for his soul willingly after seeing red changes everything. The same thing i was telling you about, actions:attempt of rape in seeing red, consequences: Spike getting a soul. Just to be clear, i don't mean that consequences always have to be some sort of punishment, no, what i'm looking for is characters learning from their mistakes and obviously not doing it again. That's my problem with Angel, he keeps making the same mistakes, learning some lesson and then forgetting it next season.
And if you don't like how Angel gets second chances, can you justify why 6 and a half years of friendship and love can be written away to have Buffy turning against her friends for Spike? Can you justify that no matter what Spike does, a lot of his fans ignore every bad action? If he does something wrong, it's just bad writing (not referring to Willingham). It makes no sense to me. I'm trying to be open minded and fair in all my judgments of characters but it's hard to do that if it isn't a level playing field, dude.
For me, Angel is a hero who has done terrible things, something he addmits, and every day he is trying to make up for his crimes. Answer me honestly, if Spike had formulated the plan to challenge the SP and had killed Drogyn etc, would you condemn him, blame it on bad writing, or feel sorry for him that he had to make such a terrible decision?? For me, the answer towards Angel is the first and the last choice. Can you say the same?
As i told you before, Buffy did not turn on her friends for Spike, if you are talking about season 7, they didn't like her leading methods and took over kicking Buffy out of her own house. Spike simply defended her and then went to seek her out. Before that, she wanted to save Spike and her friends backed her up, not once did she choose Spike over her friends. I haven't ignored anything, i assume you are talking about the shows, Spike's actions are judged just as harshly as Angel's. The fact of the matter is that his sin list is much much shorter. Two actions stand out, torturing of the evil Doc and going with Angel's plan in the end. But it was still not Spike or anyone else that made the plan come to be by the end, that was all Angel, he set up and killed Droghyn. If anything that situation should have thaught Spike that he should never just assume that the leader he is following knows what he/she is doing. Buffy did, Angel did not, his was a pitfull last desperate act that by a simple lucky chance didn't have millions of deaths.
But that's just it, admitting doing something wrong or feeling guilt about it doesn't make it ok. I can choose to kill a dozen babies now, for the greater good(as decided by me), if i feel guilt for it afterwards it doesn't make it ok or make me a hero. I'm glad you asked that, yes i would judge Spike just as harshly if he did all those things, but the fact is that my character didn't do all those disgusting things, Angel did, just as he is now Twlight, Spike isn't. Which is why i'm so annoyed with Idw, i don't care if they want to tell Angel the invincible/can do no wrong hero stories, fine, but that doesn't mean that they should hold Spike back of his development or have him look up to Angel as if he's the greatest hero that ever lived. Spike was very critical of Angel. And as Angel's character is getting further demolished, i don't want them to drag Spike down with him.
I don't see it as bad writing, the only bad writing i disliked in season 5 was how with Spike's arrival Angel became all about Buffy again, just for the sake of competition. But his actions i can fully see as development of this character, just as with Twilight could have only been Angel of our time. A future version could have been everyone including Spike if they changed with time. But present time, only Angel(and perhaps Giles) have this warped view of killing some to save many makes it ok.
Here is how I have always compared Angel and Spike based on their attitudes. Angel comes to LA to help people and not once expects anything in return. Spike is revived in LA and bitches and moans that he doesn't have what HE deserves. This is one of the the differences between them. Spike is not good as gold like many portray him to be and neither is Angel. To expect anything else is just foolish. They are both guilty of crimes pre and post soul. They are on the road to redemption.
Anyway, though I'm sure you will reply to this post, I am more than willing to agree to disagree before it spirals into an argument again. Been enjoying this working relationship we've had going on.
Well that is indeed a very unique view. I guess for me it would be, Angel gets a soul, does evil acts here and there for a 100y including bitching and moaning. Meets an underage girl, falls in love, gets turned into a champion, goes off to La, is on the verge of failling, gets sent a guide, meets people that he needs and believe in his mission and fights.
Spike, as an evil vampire hurt the woman he loves, chooses to get a soul, gets supercrazy because of the first yet still returns, Buffy helps and believes in him, Spike slowly transforms into a champion, helps save the world, get stuck with his old rival, sees things worth fighting for there(Fred), makes his own missions free of destiny and simply fights because he chooses to.
Yep, Spike is not gold, nobody is but Spike is a more evolved then Angel. I think Angel will never fully evolve on account of Angelus and the constant struggle between those two, while Spike is more in harmony with his demon.
Jean-Vic, as i told you before, we are not doing anything wrong. You have your opinion and i have mine and we are discussing it in a civil manner. We rule