Bill Willingham talks Angel at C2E2 2010.

Drop any comments about Joss Whedon's Angel, Spike or any of the related titles in this space, whether you have a soul or not.

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Postby Double Dutchess » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:57 am

Buffyfest wrote:Haha...oh my goodness. He didn't say anything about Marsters DYING. He said this:

"Happy 46th birthday, Marsters! Thank you for getting so old that there can now never be a Spike TV movie. Lay on that cross all bare chested, buddy. You've.... you've earned it. "

I personally do think it's funny. Our blogger was clearly upset that there can't be a Spike movie bc of Marsters' aging face, it's really not that heavy, guys. Sorry if you don't agree, but a sense of humor varies among people, obviously, and it's what passes for humor on our site. We like it, we find it funny.


Yes, I did get the sarcasm of the "Happy Birthday", the "thank you" and the "you've earned it" parts. I also understand you find it funny and meant it as a joke. I was just pointing out that to people who don't share your sense of humour (like me, obviously), it is likely to come across simply as a hurtful remark and nothing else. On the other hand, I suppose it is true that the best jokes are often the ones that upset a lot of people. It's certainly not impossible that I'm just being oversensitive here.

Still I just don't get the funny part. If I said for example something like "Happy Holiday Buffyfest. Thank you for going to a place that has no Internet, so that there cannot be a blog for weeks while you're away. Take a good long rest, you've earned it." Would that be funny???? (I don't think it would.)
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Postby DihcarEM » Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:18 am

Jean-Vic wrote:But dude, he doesn't get off scott free. He suffers. You name me one moment of happiness in Angel's life that has not been abruptly taken from him? The point of these stories is not about "he's done wrong so he must be punished." The point is that Angel makes mistakes and he tries to make up for them. All the way through NFA he made it clear he didn't want to kill Drogyn, he showed guilt. He isn't heartless. He makes tough choices. His good far outweighs his bad. And if Angel has been tricked into being Twilight or whatever and he does come out the other side, why should he be punished. He will no doubt try and make up.

Suffering is all relative and it's not what i'm looking for, what i'm looking for is consequences. The same i would expect for any character including Spike to have. Every action has a reaction and since Angel switched to comics, his story lacks consequences. At a certain point it starts to become ridiculouse how many mistakes he makes and has to make up for, the constant second chances he gets, chances that many other characters didn't get. Having guilt alone for your actions doesn't make it ok especially a situation like Drogyn. It was cold blooded murder by Angel, he was the one that set him up, used him to convince the others he had turned evil and in the end was the one that killed him. You know, i'm sick and tired of hearing that excuse, he had to make though choices. It reminds me of the movie Man on fire and Denzel's character hunts down these lowlives and at a certain point he gets pissed and goes on this rant. Where that almost every criminal uses the excuse of 'I'm a professional' as if that ok's their actions. Well here it's the same, making tough choices and being a champion does not ok your lowering yourself to their standerds.
Disagree about his good far outweighing his bad, to me it's the opposite.

You're right, we can't make these characters what we want and that being said no matter what people say Angel is not a bad person. If Joss is the creator and his word and his scripts are ultimate canon, every feeling and word said by or about or to Angel is ultimate canon. Therefore, when the comics show he is a remorseful hero making up for a lifetime of bad choices, that is what he is. He is not some undeserving lowlife who just happens to get the lucky hand. He makes mistakes, he suffers, he fights and helps people.

Joss words are final but he never said anything about Angel being the perfect hero that makes all the right choices. And while Atf is canon, i do consider it less canon then the tv-shows, they can't be touched. I don't think he's a lowlife but nor do i think he deserves a reward, if any character deserves a reward then there are plenty more deserving then him.

And you have once again pointed to the key word there. Spike is ONE of her greatest loves, not THE greatest love like you said before. There is no evidence of that. That is the unsubstantiated comment. I never say Buffy is Angel's or vice versa because we just can't and can never prove it. One of is not is a disputed fact. In this universe there are no definites, no absolutes. One mans canon is another mans folly. Some think B/S are the greatest love, others don't. Some think Angel is the greatest hero, fighter, person, but others dont. Some people think Angel is and always has been an evil man constrained by a soul, while the majority don't. All I'm saying is, there are no definite right answers and you can't just throw such things out there.

No i didn't say the greatest, i said great love. And that was correct, i'm not going to mention Angel everytime when there's no need to. I was making my point how the writers keep on forgetting that Spike is just as important to Buffy as Angel is. Angel being the other love was a given.
Beg to differ, there are plenty of absolutes. Mostly in the forms of prophecies. Buffy will die, Connor will kill Sahjan. And Spike and Angel being Buffy's greatest loves was confirmed several times throughout this season. It will likely not change because we also heard it from future dark Willow, implying that it will not change. We will see for ourselves if it does. The thing i threw out there was correct, as much as Spike choosing to get his soul back was.
If it isn't bothering you you wouldn't have been so vocal about it. I'm just saying, don't let the opinions of a writer who has no grasp of these characters bother you with statements that are non-canon anyway. The real Spike is going to show up in Buffy Season 8 and what his role is will be revealed.

No they really don't. Me choosing to talk,discuss it does not imply that they bother me, they don't. That doesn't mean that i should keep my mouth shut until something bothers me before i speak up. True and i'm greatly looking forward to his upcoming role, be it bad or good, one thing is guaranteed...change.

Buffyfest wrote:Hi DihcarEM, thanks for responding. I wasn't trying to call you out, just wanted to ask directly. I don't come in here much because every time I doI see some negative comment about a site that I contribute to that seems largely unfounded to me. Not everyone has to like our site, of course, but we do work hard on it and if I see something being misunderstood about it, I just want to get to the heart of the problem.
I don't mind being called out and clarifying.

I see that your opinion on Willingham's characterization reaches far beyond the interview Buffyfest conducted with him since, obviously you didn't get all that from our interview. I stand by my original statement, that we made no mention of Spike or Spuffy in our questions, so whatever your reading into must be solely in Willingham's answers that you've quoted, if anything.

As i said, i took the complete package, multiple interviews and formed an opinion on that. In this instance i think it was more Willingham's biased views then Buffyfest.
As far as the statement:
We're going to have to disagree there. Buffyfest is a site that holds various blogger's opinions. It is not one single biased person, thank the gods...that would be terrible. We disagree all the time behind closed doors (or, emails rather) all the time, which I think is a good thing.

Yes, we are going to have to. I really don't think your site is neutral, it's not overly obvious but it is there. The fact that plenty of fans have noticed it and i've seen it commented on several boards proves that it's not just me.
But as i said, it doesn't bother me, you guys are clearly also fans and thus you all have your own opinions.
I don't know about behind closed doors, i can only read what is put out there.
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Postby Buffyfest » Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:22 am

Gotcha, Double Dutchess, I actually *might* find it funny if someone said that on our birthday, but maybe not. Guess it would depend on my mood. :)

And sueworld, I didn't write that post so I guess it's not me who needs to give up my dream of stand-up comedy, or whatever, but I'm starting to feel attacked here. To each his own. If you don't yet realize that the world is full of different types of humor, I'm going to give you a little piece of advice that you gave to me up thread and that is you "should just get used to that asap".

Again, all of this has NOTHING to do with why I came in here and I don't want to derail it any more. You guys are now talking about a two year old post that is two sentences long. It was a joke. you didn't like it? that's fine. It's one post out of 800 (mostly quality posts, if I do say so myself). Stop giving it more time and power than it deserves.
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Postby Double Dutchess » Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:41 am

Buffyfest wrote:Gotcha, Double Dutchess, I actually *might* find it funny if someone said that on our birthday, but maybe not. Guess it would depend on my mood. :)


Good enough for me. Personally I wouldn't like it (my feelings would be hurt; and I don't see the fun in saying things that are likely to hurt other people's feelings), but we've already established that this is because we don't share the same sense of humour.

Stop giving it more time and power than it deserves.


OK, advice taken. Let's talk about more interesting (or at least more on-topic) things again.
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Postby Jean-Vic » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:06 pm

DIHCAR: We've said all we need to say on this topic. I guess we just have differing views on the show, on the characters and on the world as a whole. Though I would like to make one point before I offer the old agree to disagree olive branch:

You said that you're looking for consequences. Well, I consider 100 years of infinite remorse and loneliness a consequence. I consider burning in hell for 100+ years a consequence. I consider Angel losing his months old son a consequence. I consider Angel having his son return from hell and sink him to the bottom of the sea for three months a consequence. I consider Angel losing nearly every one of his friends a consequence. And I consider having to spend nearly every day in misery because of his guilt a consequence. And I don't mean this as a bash at Spike, but out of the two Angel has always shown more remorse for his crimes than Spike did and what to this date has Spike suffered? He lost Fred, sure, but in comparison to Angel, Gunn, Lorne and especially WES he felt no where near the same grief they did. Aside from that what has he lost?? Because I can't think of any way Spike has suffered. Why are Angel's actions so disgusting to you when you can understand Spike bragging, yes bragging, about killing slayers, actively seeking to fight and beat another one, and telling Robin Wood that he doesn't care about killing his mother? How can you claim Angel's actions are so evil when you have in the past tried to justify, to an extent, Spike's attempted rape of Buffy with the "he realised it was wrong and fought for a soul" line? It just doesn't make sense to me how you can be so critical of Angel but not Spike.

And if you don't like how Angel gets second chances, can you justify why 6 and a half years of friendship and love can be written away to have Buffy turning against her friends for Spike? Can you justify that no matter what Spike does, a lot of his fans ignore every bad action? If he does something wrong, it's just bad writing (not referring to Willingham). It makes no sense to me. I'm trying to be open minded and fair in all my judgments of characters but it's hard to do that if it isn't a level playing field, dude.

For me, Angel is a hero who has done terrible things, something he addmits, and every day he is trying to make up for his crimes. Answer me honestly, if Spike had formulated the plan to challenge the SP and had killed Drogyn etc, would you condemn him, blame it on bad writing, or feel sorry for him that he had to make such a terrible decision?? For me, the answer towards Angel is the first and the last choice. Can you say the same?

Here is how I have always compared Angel and Spike based on their attitudes. Angel comes to LA to help people and not once expects anything in return. Spike is revived in LA and bitches and moans that he doesn't have what HE deserves. This is one of the the differences between them. Spike is not good as gold like many portray him to be and neither is Angel. To expect anything else is just foolish. They are both guilty of crimes pre and post soul. They are on the road to redemption.

Anyway, though I'm sure you will reply to this post, I am more than willing to agree to disagree before it spirals into an argument again. Been enjoying this working relationship we've had going on. :wink:

BUFFYFEST: I suggest you just stay away for a while. You've been branded, love, and that sucker doesn't fade. Trust me. I'm still making up for it. Whether your posts are innocent or not they've been interpreted now and that's it. Strict liability, peaches. Maybe when everyone's cooled off, eh... :wink:
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Postby Buffyfest » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:34 pm

I can see that, Jean-Vic. Thanks for the warning. I had no idea these boards were this hostile! I stand by my innocence though, I tolerate the 'ships. If I felt otherwise, I'd simply say so. :?

Guess I'll just mosey on back to my home at Buffyfest. Hope everyone has a great day.

-Tara
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Postby Double Dutchess » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:59 am

Buffyfest wrote:I can see that, Jean-Vic. Thanks for the warning. I had no idea these boards were this hostile! I stand by my innocence though, I tolerate the 'ships. If I felt otherwise, I'd simply say so. :?

Guess I'll just mosey on back to my home at Buffyfest. Hope everyone has a great day.

-Tara


I'm sorry that we have made you feel bad (and I don't mean this sarcastically). I never actually intended to make you feel unwelcome here; in fact I did initially take your side in the matter of the Willingham interview. But when you said that slagging off celebrities is OK and even funny, I felt just so indignant that I couldn't NOT say anything about it. I suppose I should have kept my mouth shut and practised what I preach. I just hope that maybe you will have taken away at least a slight understanding of why some people, in their turn, might perceive Buffyfest to be a hostile environment.
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Postby DihcarEM » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:29 am

Jean-Vic wrote:You said that you're looking for consequences. Well, I consider 100 years of infinite remorse and loneliness a consequence. I consider burning in hell for 100+ years a consequence. I consider Angel losing his months old son a consequence. I consider Angel having his son return from hell and sink him to the bottom of the sea for three months a consequence. I consider Angel losing nearly every one of his friends a consequence. And I consider having to spend nearly every day in misery because of his guilt a consequence.

The problem with those examples are that they are not what you make them out to be. Angel did not have infinite remorse and loneliness for a 100y. He had the audacity to look down on humanity, unleash Lawson and damn a whole group of scared people. Burning in hell, a cause of his own actions. Losing his son, well that is either karma for the murdering of the thousends of childeren he did in the past(or hell just what he did to Holtz's family) or hazard of the biz he's working in. Just as Nikki chose the mission over her son so did Angel. He continued with his mission eventhough he could have just as easily packed up and provided a normal life for Connor, to clarify i don't see this as a bad deciscion on Angel's part, it's very admirable. But he made his choice. Losing his friends, again they were adults that chose to fight and believe in Angel's mission, except in season5. There the death of Fred and Wesley is partly to blame on Angel, he only came to w&h because of Connor, there he again chose his son over his friends which is to be expected.

And I don't mean this as a bash at Spike, but out of the two Angel has always shown more remorse for his crimes than Spike did and what to this date has Spike suffered? He lost Fred, sure, but in comparison to Angel, Gunn, Lorne and especially WES he felt no where near the same grief they did. Aside from that what has he lost?? Because I can't think of any way Spike has suffered. Why are Angel's actions so disgusting to you when you can understand Spike bragging, yes bragging, about killing slayers, actively seeking to fight and beat another one, and telling Robin Wood that he doesn't care about killing his mother? How can you claim Angel's actions are so evil when you have in the past tried to justify, to an extent, Spike's attempted rape of Buffy with the "he realised it was wrong and fought for a soul" line? It just doesn't make sense to me how you can be so critical of Angel but not Spike.
I don't know why you keep on bringing this back to Spike but i'll play.
Showing remorse means nothing and it isn't something that can be measured. Angel has suffered more mostly because of his own actions as i told you before, Spike is not Angel. Angel's faults are his own. It was not Spike that tried to end the world in season2, it was not Spike that unleashed Lawson, it was not Spike that killed Droghyn and started an apocalypse,ect.
How much suffering a person goes through is not what defines them as a hero/champion, i don't know were you get that from.
Why? Because those things happend 30years ago when Spike did not have a soul, if you payed attention you would notice that i only mention Angel's digusting actions that are really severe one's(like recently trying to end the world) or with a soul.
Spike's killing of Nikki was already settled in season7, out of all the killings he's done, that's probably the least bad ones. Because unlike all those others, this prey could fight back and was stronger then him. They came together as warriors, fought and he won. If Robin wanted an apology from Spike then he should have approched him like that, instead he just wanted revenge and to kill a person that doesn't excist anymore. Robin got what he deserved and he might be able to put issues to rest having a much clearer image of his mother on who and what she was. Spike was right, Nikki did love her son but the mission was more important.
Spike's actions can be partly justified because of his actions after what he did. If he didn't get a soul and just stayed in sunnydale in his crypt then i sure as hell wouldn't be a fan of the character. But the fact that he went for his soul willingly after seeing red changes everything. The same thing i was telling you about, actions:attempt of rape in seeing red, consequences: Spike getting a soul. Just to be clear, i don't mean that consequences always have to be some sort of punishment, no, what i'm looking for is characters learning from their mistakes and obviously not doing it again. That's my problem with Angel, he keeps making the same mistakes, learning some lesson and then forgetting it next season.

And if you don't like how Angel gets second chances, can you justify why 6 and a half years of friendship and love can be written away to have Buffy turning against her friends for Spike? Can you justify that no matter what Spike does, a lot of his fans ignore every bad action? If he does something wrong, it's just bad writing (not referring to Willingham). It makes no sense to me. I'm trying to be open minded and fair in all my judgments of characters but it's hard to do that if it isn't a level playing field, dude.

For me, Angel is a hero who has done terrible things, something he addmits, and every day he is trying to make up for his crimes. Answer me honestly, if Spike had formulated the plan to challenge the SP and had killed Drogyn etc, would you condemn him, blame it on bad writing, or feel sorry for him that he had to make such a terrible decision?? For me, the answer towards Angel is the first and the last choice. Can you say the same?

As i told you before, Buffy did not turn on her friends for Spike, if you are talking about season 7, they didn't like her leading methods and took over kicking Buffy out of her own house. Spike simply defended her and then went to seek her out. Before that, she wanted to save Spike and her friends backed her up, not once did she choose Spike over her friends. I haven't ignored anything, i assume you are talking about the shows, Spike's actions are judged just as harshly as Angel's. The fact of the matter is that his sin list is much much shorter. Two actions stand out, torturing of the evil Doc and going with Angel's plan in the end. But it was still not Spike or anyone else that made the plan come to be by the end, that was all Angel, he set up and killed Droghyn. If anything that situation should have thaught Spike that he should never just assume that the leader he is following knows what he/she is doing. Buffy did, Angel did not, his was a pitfull last desperate act that by a simple lucky chance didn't have millions of deaths.

But that's just it, admitting doing something wrong or feeling guilt about it doesn't make it ok. I can choose to kill a dozen babies now, for the greater good(as decided by me), if i feel guilt for it afterwards it doesn't make it ok or make me a hero. I'm glad you asked that, yes i would judge Spike just as harshly if he did all those things, but the fact is that my character didn't do all those disgusting things, Angel did, just as he is now Twlight, Spike isn't. Which is why i'm so annoyed with Idw, i don't care if they want to tell Angel the invincible/can do no wrong hero stories, fine, but that doesn't mean that they should hold Spike back of his development or have him look up to Angel as if he's the greatest hero that ever lived. Spike was very critical of Angel. And as Angel's character is getting further demolished, i don't want them to drag Spike down with him.
I don't see it as bad writing, the only bad writing i disliked in season 5 was how with Spike's arrival Angel became all about Buffy again, just for the sake of competition. But his actions i can fully see as development of this character, just as with Twilight could have only been Angel of our time. A future version could have been everyone including Spike if they changed with time. But present time, only Angel(and perhaps Giles) have this warped view of killing some to save many makes it ok.

Here is how I have always compared Angel and Spike based on their attitudes. Angel comes to LA to help people and not once expects anything in return. Spike is revived in LA and bitches and moans that he doesn't have what HE deserves. This is one of the the differences between them. Spike is not good as gold like many portray him to be and neither is Angel. To expect anything else is just foolish. They are both guilty of crimes pre and post soul. They are on the road to redemption.

Anyway, though I'm sure you will reply to this post, I am more than willing to agree to disagree before it spirals into an argument again. Been enjoying this working relationship we've had going on. :wink:

Well that is indeed a very unique view. I guess for me it would be, Angel gets a soul, does evil acts here and there for a 100y including bitching and moaning. Meets an underage girl, falls in love, gets turned into a champion, goes off to La, is on the verge of failling, gets sent a guide, meets people that he needs and believe in his mission and fights.
Spike, as an evil vampire hurt the woman he loves, chooses to get a soul, gets supercrazy because of the first yet still returns, Buffy helps and believes in him, Spike slowly transforms into a champion, helps save the world, get stuck with his old rival, sees things worth fighting for there(Fred), makes his own missions free of destiny and simply fights because he chooses to.
Yep, Spike is not gold, nobody is but Spike is a more evolved then Angel. I think Angel will never fully evolve on account of Angelus and the constant struggle between those two, while Spike is more in harmony with his demon.

Jean-Vic, as i told you before, we are not doing anything wrong. You have your opinion and i have mine and we are discussing it in a civil manner. We rule 8) .[/quote]
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Postby sueworld » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:46 am

Double Dutchess wrote:
Buffyfest wrote:I can see that, Jean-Vic. Thanks for the warning. I had no idea these boards were this hostile! I stand by my innocence though, I tolerate the 'ships. If I felt otherwise, I'd simply say so. :?

Guess I'll just mosey on back to my home at Buffyfest. Hope everyone has a great day.

-Tara


I suppose I should have kept my mouth shut and practised what I preach.


No, imo you really shouldn't have. It doesn't matter who they are, anyone who came on here and posted those kind of insulting comments deserves to get challenged over them.
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Postby DihcarEM » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:07 am

Yeah Double Dutchess, see Sue's response, she's correct.
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Postby Double Dutchess » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:22 am

Yeah, you (Sue, Dihcar) may be right. Actually I feel quite torn about the whole thing. On the one hand I think it's important not to let things like these pass without comment, but on the other hand I really don't like it if my comments make people feel bad. I would like to think this is a friendly and respectful board and I don't want to be partially responsible for chasing someone away from it.
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Postby sueworld » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:01 am

Bottom line is they've proved on here with their own words that they see upsetting people as being funny.

As to driving anyone away, well I'm sure the minute anyone else on here criticizes the content of their site they'll be back again to state their case.
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Postby Jean-Vic » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:57 am

DIHCAR: I won't address everything. I just wanted to say that I keep bringing Spike because he is your favourite as Angel is mine and as the only two vampires with souls they are the only ones who can be compared.

You said you're sick of Angel making the same mistakes, learning a lesson, then doing it again. Umm... when? I've never seen him learn a lesson twice. I think in his time he's made two mistakes on his show. 1) Going dark in Season 2. After he came back from that he never returned to it. 2) Challenging the Senior Partners. He never knew they would punish LA, jut himself and those who helped him. When he realised he was wrong he made efforts to save LA, which he did, and in the process he has destroyed the Circle of the BlackThorn, the most powerful demon group on earth and he has removed W+H from LA. Not too shabby. 3) I won't get into Twilight because we don't know the whole story.

Again, you're justifying Spike telling a man he didn't care about killing his mother and that Wood deserved that. Sorry, dude, but for me when you have a soul you should feel guilt over the people you've killed. When Holtz returned did Angel tell Holtz that he didn't care about his family? No, he said he could never make up for the things he did. It was only after Damage that Spike really started seeing it, that he was a monster who had done a lot of bad things and started actively seeking to help.

Anyway, we're never going to agree on this. I can never change your opinion but I do feel sorry for you for thinking that way about Angel. He's a great character loved the world over and you can't enjoy him and his journey because of these views. And to be honest, you're the first person I've ever known to have them. But, opinions are opinions right.

'Til next time, dude. :wink:
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Postby Double Dutchess » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:58 am

Jean-Vic wrote:It was only after Damage that Spike really started seeing it, that he was a monster who had done a lot of bad things and started actively seeking to help.


I don't think that is true. For example, what about when he asked Buffy to kill him, and told her of the terrible things he had done to girls like Dawn when he was soulless? He was definitely "seeing it" then. Also, I think that what he said to Wood doesn't prove that he didn't feel guilty about killing Nikki Wood. In other circumstances (for instance if Wood hadn't just tried to kill him, as Dihcarem pointed out) he might well have apologized. At least that's the way I see it.
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Postby DihcarEM » Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:13 am

Jean-Vic wrote:You said you're sick of Angel making the same mistakes, learning a lesson, then doing it again. Umm... when? I've never seen him learn a lesson twice. I think in his time he's made two mistakes on his show. 1) Going dark in Season 2. After he came back from that he never returned to it. 2) Challenging the Senior Partners. He never knew they would punish LA, jut himself and those who helped him. When he realised he was wrong he made efforts to save LA, which he did, and in the process he has destroyed the Circle of the BlackThorn, the most powerful demon group on earth and he has removed W+H from LA. Not too shabby. 3) I won't get into Twilight because we don't know the whole story.

1)Sorry there are plenty of them and i'm not going to view every season again to list them. Suffice to say season 5 has the most of them, earlier seasons too but there Angel seemed more human and not so full of himself. He knew that he needed people to make a difference in the world and that he alone wasn't enough. As Doyle explained it, without humanconnections Angel would never be a champion. 1)the act of compassion,mercy which he keeps getting some ephinany about yet in the end simply lowers himself to the enemies's standerds. 2)Again, that's a lame excuse. And any leader that uses it is not fit to lead, it was Angel's plan and he started to turn the wheels first. Angel himself said that killing the black thorn wouldn't change much, other demons would take their place, he just wanted to send a message. Regardless of the consequences and how can one not assume that they would attack the rest of La after finishing the gang off. Were they supposed to just magically dissapear? Anyone with half a brain could see the danger in the situation that Angel made happen. At the very least he should have had second front ready, by calling Faith,Buffy,Willlow or Giles. Any of those would have been enough to garanty that the citizens of La wouldn't be helpless. Going by the fight itself, i think Angel underestimated the gang. Gunn as expected would be done for but take away the reset-flash, Spike,Illyra and Angel would have been enough to kill that army as they did in the end.
The trying to save La is after the damage had been done just is not good enough, you don't damn thousends,millions of people and then get off with a scott free lame-o speech. If Angel's death had been the key all along then i blame Spike,Illyria or even evil Gunn for not killing him in the first place. I think Illyria told Spike this that killing Angel would solve everything so i especially blame Spike for this, he should have done what needed to be done. Even Connor i believe would sacrifice his father to save everybody else.3) Agreed, we'll have more answers with next week's issue.

Again, you're justifying Spike telling a man he didn't care about killing his mother and that Wood deserved that. Sorry, dude, but for me when you have a soul you should feel guilt over the people you've killed. When Holtz returned did Angel tell Holtz that he didn't care about his family? No, he said he could never make up for the things he did. It was only after Damage that Spike really started seeing it, that he was a monster who had done a lot of bad things and started actively seeking to help.

You have no idea how much guilt Spike feels over killing the slayers, no one does. But in that instance, Spike was correct, again Wood didn't want a sorry/or a reason on why Spike killed his mother. Wood wanted to kill him and came close to succeeding in it, he didn't even give Spike a fighting chance unlike what Spike gave his mother. Holtz confronted Angel directly, he made no secret that he was after his destruction. Wood fougth alongside Spike, watched his back, came under the mask of an ally. We have no idea how Spike would have reacted if Wood had been truthfull and confronted Spike as soon as he met him instead of trying to kill him in such a cowardly way.
Angel tried to say sorry to Holtz, it only made him more angry,furious and hellbent on his destruction. You can't apologize to people like Holtz, they would never accept it. What was done was done and Angel could never do anything to change that.
Again very different situations, Angelus killed,tortured,possibly raped Holtz's wife and kids. Forcing Holtz to kill his turned kids. They were innocent victems that couldn't in any way fight back against Angelus and Darla.
Nikki was an experienced slayer, a champion, she was stronger then Spike and had a more then fair chance of defeating him. She lost, Spike won. Spike didn't as Angelus would do rape Nikki,degrade her, use her son to mentally break her.
No, i disagree, Spike had long since come to terms with what a monster he had been, most of his defining development with a soul happend in season7. Damage he just saw it from the other point of view for the first time, as in Spike Asylum he also shows remorse instantly after figuring out the truth.

Anyway, we're never going to agree on this. I can never change your opinion but I do feel sorry for you for thinking that way about Angel. He's a great character loved the world over and you can't enjoy him and his journey because of these views. And to be honest, you're the first person I've ever known to have them. But, opinions are opinions right.

You feel sorry for me, that's kinda overdramatic don't you think? And i think you are overestimating how 'loved' of a character Angel is in the world. I do enjoy his journey, if only to see how many more mistakes and suffering he's allowed to cause and get away with it.
I suggest you broaden your net views then because this wasn't my original opinion. It's through other people's views that i came to agree with them, they pointed things out to me that i previously hadn't noticed. And i've seen several posters with the same opinion on the big boards.
Yep thus is the nature of opinions.
DihcarEM
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