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Postby Denyer » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:01 am

Black Bumblebee wrote:We Transfans weren't too happy.


There's no hive mind in either fandom, thankfully.

There were a large number of (ex-)readers who were either indifferent or ready to dance on the company's grave. If IDW dropped the TF license tomorrow, there'd be people who didn't care or were happy too.
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Postby KJ » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:01 am

I don't see why we have to be labelled as 'the Transformers fans.'

We're posting here about GIJOE, we're GIJOE fans too.
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Postby vguzz2 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:29 am

I'll be honest. I really liked IDW's Transformer run in the beginning, but now I could care less if they were to lose the license. The books just take too long to come out and when they finally do nothing happens to progress the story much. I think I lost interest when Galvatron was some kind of undead transformer and one of the kid becomes a headmaster. I also got mad when I went to the store and spent money on some book called "focus on decepticons" .. I thought it was a new mini series and here it was just some hype advertisement issue for another upcoming series.. If that ever even comes out. seriously can we just have the Marvel universe back..it's being reprinted constantly anyways for a nominal fee as well..
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Postby Denyer » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:47 am

KJ wrote:I don't see why we have to be labelled as 'the Transformers fans.'

It's much easier to turn things into sides, especially whilst making wild claims?

To an extent it's a fair reduction of the situation -- people who've invested in one product and may be a ready-made pool of readers if the property is handled in one way, and others who variously don't want a continuity that includes elements they see as a bit silly / don't like the direction some characters have been taken / are used to collecting full storylines in other lines and are put off by the quantity of existing material / like miniseries so that they know ahead of time how many issues they'll be buying / etc.

I'm not really bothered as long as things are accessible and characters I like are featured -- which is territory that spotlight-type issues cover well. so I expect there'll be some material to interest.

I'm also at least as interested in meta/fandom/industry as storylines these days; there's very little original going on in comics, books, music, films or anything else. So the tendency is for discussion to nod to market realities, and accept that a fair amount of product is aimed at other people.

vguzz2 wrote:The books just take too long to come out and when they finally do nothing happens to progress the story much.

Furman has pacing issues with miniseries (garage, Ironhide rescue) and tends to sprawl. The tactic of trying to keep some events over in spotlights gets messy when it overlaps with a mini -- anyone just picking up the main books is going to wonder why there are random aliens tacked onto the end of Escalation in a two panel info dump, and for those readers things go from bad to worse in Devastation.

Given less space he performs better, on the whole.

vguzz2 wrote:can we just have the Marvel universe back..it's being reprinted constantly anyways for a nominal fee as well

Not if you're trying to complete a story collection it isn't, sadly -- a lot can't or won't be covered. For people who want a flavour of the material there's plenty out there, though, and some of it can be put into collections that work as contiguous blocks.

A continuation would in all likelihood be commercial suicide.
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Postby vguzz2 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:54 am

vguzz2 wrote:
can we just have the Marvel universe back..it's being reprinted constantly anyways for a nominal fee as well

Not if you're trying to complete a story collection it isn't, sadly -- a lot can't or won't be covered. For people who want a flavour of the material there's plenty out there, though, and some of it can be put into collections that work as contiguous blocks.

A continuation would in all likelihood be commercial suicide.



When Image picked up GI Joe all of the Marvel issues were far from being available. When Devils Due took over the same could be said. Was it a commercial suicide?


I'd love another transformer title that had some kind of classic story continuation. I don't think it would be a commercial failure at all. I think it would probably do great. If a Transformer fan is going to spend 5 bucks to buy an advertisement issue like "Focus on Deceptions" then why not a new side book focusing on the old classic stuff. You have issue 1 as a brief recap and by issue 2 off you go. I'm sooo bored at work today hehe
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Postby Jim » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:52 pm

vguzz2 wrote:When Image picked up GI Joe all of the Marvel issues were far from being available. When Devils Due took over the same could be said. Was it a commercial suicide?


Devils Due didn't "take over", they always produced the Joe books, Image just released them. DDP then left Image and released the books themselves.

Part of me would love to see a continuation of the Marvel TF stuff, but the end of the G2 comic is a great ending and part of me wants to leave it there, with the Autobots and Decepticons pretty much at peace with each other.

The DW reboot of TF left a bad tats ein my mouth for the most part, so I was glad that IDW decided to take things in their own direction.
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Postby Denyer » Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:47 pm

vguzz2 wrote:When Image picked up GI Joe all of the Marvel issues were far from being available. When Devils Due took over

DD just put stuff out through Image.

vguzz2 wrote:spend 5 bucks

Three. Which was still something of a rip-off for a couple of interviews, reused art and the first few pages of another comic.

vguzz2 wrote:You have issue 1 as a brief recap

Possibly 22 pages by Furman entitled "These Are Not the Rantings of a Madman, Honest."

We've had two Galvatrons, more time travel than you can shake a stick at, four or five comings of Unicron, crossover with a minimum of one alt-universe, Marvel-exclusive characters tied up in events, San Francisco has been burnt off the face of the planet, and a large number of original characters are either dead or dead and have been eaten. They're about to go up against an interstellar army of biomorphic clones led by a guy who claims to be Megatron's antecedent but doesn't appear to be a Transformer.

It's not a particularly obvious starting point for a new series almost a decade and a half later. Even limiting things to Marvel US quite a lot of that stands. (And most of it technically happens in Joes continuity as well -- in that respect modern continuations haven't been direct follow-ons from Marvel.)
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Postby Straight-Edge » Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:19 pm

Denyer wrote:most of it technically happens in Joes continuity as well -- in that respect modern continuations haven't been direct follow-ons from Marvel.


My personal opinion (which is backed by some empirical data) is the while the Transformers stuff that occured in GIJoe #138-142 count in Joe continuity, the stuff that occurs in G2, even the scenes with GIJoe characters in them, do not count.

I look at their two continuities as parellel Universes which "dip" into one another at random points. IE, Transformers do not exist in the GIJoe Universe until the first Crossover, where the two Universes exist in the same space at the same time, for four issues length.

When that time is over, the Autobots, Decepticons, and the ancillary characters involved in the story go back to their own, separate Universe, leaving the Joes in a world without Transformers, even tho they remember the events that transpired.

Come 1993, the Universes cross once again, putting Megatron and Starscream on Earth to do business with Cobra (note that two robots are seen in 138, even tho only Megatron flies out to Trans-Carpathia). Because the Universes are now overlapping, GIJoe is able to send a message to Cybertron, and alert Optimus, who sends a small team of Autobots to Earth... most of whom are killed. At the end of #142, Megatron takes the Ark and Dr. Biggles-Jones back to Cybertron (we're shown specifically that they are in deep space at issue's end).

This is the point where the timelines once again split off. in G2 #2, Megatron never leaves Earth, and GIJoe agents successfully destroy a Cobra truck full of Ark Technology. Spike and Fort Max destroy the Ark, and Megatron barely escapes to reunite with Starscream and battles Bludgeon for leadership of the remaining Decepticons (G2 #4). In #6 or 7, Hawk and Flint finally meet up with Optimus as he attempts to confront Megatron about the Swarm and the G2 'Cons. In the meantime, the Decepticons have been wreaking havoc across the country, and Hawk looks to be on the verge of a heart attack when Optimus arrives. By the end of the series, San Francisco is destroyed.

In the GIJoe version, Megatron leaves in the Ark, and is never heard from again. Cobra's Ark technology is corrupted and made worthless by the same virus Dr. Biggles-Jones tried to infect Megatron with. With the battl over, Hawk, Scarlett, Rock'n Roll, Stalker and Snake-Eyes are picked up by the Tomahawk and taken to Washington to answer questions about Dr. Biggles-Jones. (This is major, since it implies the Doctor is no longer around to answer those questions herself, despite the Joes successfully rescuing her in G2 #2). By the next issue, Hawk and Stalker are advising General Liederkranz in Wolkekukuckland with Flint joining them a few issues later. The end-of-the-world scenario played out in G2 never seems to occur in the Joe universe.

For my money, Larry Hama did his duty, and wrote the crossover as he was ordered by Marvel. When his involvement in the crossover ended, so did his obligation to include the aftermath in his book. By that measure, the events of Transformers G2 have no repercussions on the GIJoe Universe... when Megatron flies off with the Ark, the crossover ends as far as GIJoe is concerned.
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Postby Ro-Dan » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:27 pm

Alternate timeline theories like that make an IDW Joe reboot more appealing. That's not meant as a slight toward you, Straight-Edge. I'm just merely pointing out how muddled continuity gets after hundreds of issues and crossovers have been published.
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Postby Denyer » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:37 pm

Straight-Edge wrote:the Universes cross

Gets into Big Two "event" style silliness, which is below any title that pretends to a shred of realism. Gains points for a Grant Morrison framework, though.

It's simpler to say they blatantly don't fit.

This has never stopped any crossover; technically the POS Marvel just did with Avengers and TFs stands as continuity, although most people following either company will probably set fire to anyone arguing in favour of it.

Sometimes licensees (and indeed licensors) do bad things.

For my money, Larry Hama did his duty, and wrote the crossover as he was ordered by Marvel. When his involvement in the crossover ended, so did his obligation to include the aftermath in his book.

I see it purely as a question of whether Marvel cared enough to be consistent with a linking they orchestrated. They didn't, and compromised both titles for a couple of quick cross-promotions. Whether that was at the behest of the licensor I'm not sure -- I dimly recall references to the setup in convention panels sometime in the last ten years, but it doesn't really change anything either way.

It's interesting that Marvel go out of their way to allow and stress a Joes roster and the extent of the damage as far forward as #5. Possibly they'd just heard that they were due to be debuting Star Brigade and figured things couldn't get any dafter. By this point both titles are on a cancellation track, anyway -- a decision that was made by Marvel rather than Hasbro, IIRC, who didn't fancy carrying toy tie-in lines with sales at only around 100,000 units a month.
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Postby Straight-Edge » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:36 pm

Ro-Dan wrote:Alternate timeline theories like that make an IDW Joe reboot more appealing. That's not meant as a slight toward you, Straight-Edge. I'm just merely pointing out how muddled continuity gets after hundreds of issues and crossovers have been published.


No offense taken. It's exactly this kind of convoluted stuff that a reboot gets rid of. The Marvel Joe comic, like the Transformers, was a prototype... a first stab. Some stuff worked, a lot didn't, (even diehard fans can admit some of the Snake-Eyes stuff was beyond the pale). Now, 25 years later, there's an ability to step back, assess the good and bad, and present tighter version of the Joe Universe.

Denyer wrote:Gets into Big Two "event" style silliness, which is below any title that pretends to a shred of realism. Gains points for a Grant Morrison framework, though.


I'll take offense to that, sir! I *admit* to wanking fanboyily on this matter. Morrison tries to pass it off as art!

It's simpler to say they blatantly don't fit.


At the end of the day, that is what I meant. I just took the long (and verbose) way around. When the two titles don't mesh, I defer to the Jjoe version of events. In the future, I may just argue the point this way (But after 10 years of doing this all over the Joe community, I *do* have my arguements memorized in 5-paragraph diatribes)

By this point both titles are on a cancellation track, anyway -- a decision that was made by Marvel rather than Hasbro, IIRC, who didn't fancy carrying toy tie-in lines with sales at only around 100,000 units a month.


Amazing when you think about it. What was a toss-off then is the golden ring now.

All this said (and in the Serpentor thread, no less), there are a thousand little things like this, between Marvel and DDP, that make a reboot so tantalizing to me. Granted, the fans will always complain, but for me, once the slate is wiped clean, no new writer can be "wrong" because it doesn't follow "such and such issue"... and after 10 years, I'd be nice to not have to argue those points.
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Postby Ro-Dan » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:54 pm

Straight-Edge wrote:The Marvel Joe comic, like the Transformers, was a prototype... a first stab. Some stuff worked, a lot didn't, (even diehard fans can admit some of the Snake-Eyes stuff was beyond the pale). Now, 25 years later, there's an ability to step back, assess the good and bad, and present tighter version of the Joe Universe.
I know it's heresy, but I feel the original Marvel Joe series is very dated and--even though it's based on a toy line--very childish. Back in the 80's-90's, it was cool stuff. Now, when I re-read it, I just don't enjoy it as much. At least the DDP material ("World War III", in particular) was a more mature take on the franchise. I just don't hold the Marvel stuff up on the pedestal like many others on this site do. The Marvel comics material was good, not great. Just one fan's opinion so please don't flame me.
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Postby Straight-Edge » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:32 pm

Ro-Dan wrote:I know it's heresy, but I feel the original Marvel Joe series is very dated and--even though it's based on a toy line--very childish. Back in the 80's-90's, it was cool stuff. Now, when I re-read it, I just don't enjoy it as much. At least the DDP material ("World War III", in particular) was a more mature take on the franchise. I just don't hold the Marvel stuff up on the pedestal like many others on this site do. The Marvel comics material was good, not great. Just one fan's opinion so please don't flame me.


You are dead to me. ;)

On the one hand, I agree. The comic does feel dated... it's 25 years old, and revolutions in both writing and art have completely changed the medium between then and now. The dialogue is, many times, stunted by the one-shot episodic nature of the book, and needing to reintroduce the plot and characters almost every issue. That, the toy tie-in aspects that force more new characters into the book every few issues, and the limitations on storytelling that caused... all valid points.

On the other hand... not mature? Not relevant? The Joes fight against the Soviets, aid the Mid-Eastern freedom fighters, and thwart the evil whims of seedy politicians and corrupted military brass? Considering the realities of 2008, and the past seven years... Marvel's GIJoe is not only alarmingly prescient, but very much an adult take on soldiers in "this man's army". They just happen to spend a lot of time fighting goofballs in colorful uniforms as well.

To each his own, and I don't hold you opinions against you (except that you're dead to me!), but I definitaly am one of those people who holds the Marvel run on a pedestal... *despite* it's shotcomings, *because* of the subtlies and mature content (mature does not equal death and blood and sex) that was simply unheard of at that time.
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Postby Ro-Dan » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:09 pm

Straight-Edge, I can see your points regarding the Marvel GI Joe comics. Sure, there are relevant (at least at the time) themes in the comic, but I'm more concerned with the execution. I found a lot of the concepts to be rather hokey: Cobra Commander formerly a used car salesman, Billy, Springfield, and Dreadnocks drinking grape soda (c'mon, these guys would be beer and whiskey drinkers for sure!) Sure, there are some gems in there: The Cobra Civil War and the issues focusing on Snake Eyes/Storm Shadow spring immediately to mind.
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Postby KJ » Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:52 am

Ro-Dan wrote:
Straight-Edge wrote:The Marvel Joe comic, like the Transformers, was a prototype... a first stab. Some stuff worked, a lot didn't, (even diehard fans can admit some of the Snake-Eyes stuff was beyond the pale). Now, 25 years later, there's an ability to step back, assess the good and bad, and present tighter version of the Joe Universe.
I know it's heresy, but I feel the original Marvel Joe series is very dated and--even though it's based on a toy line--very childish. Back in the 80's-90's, it was cool stuff. Now, when I re-read it, I just don't enjoy it as much. At least the DDP material ("World War III", in particular) was a more mature take on the franchise. I just don't hold the Marvel stuff up on the pedestal like many others on this site do. The Marvel comics material was good, not great. Just one fan's opinion so please don't flame me.


I think, overall, it's held together fairly well.

Yeah, there's some silly elements that need to be jettisoned, but there isn't that much that's outright harmful to a new book. That stuff has mainly come from DDp (death of Lady Jaye, crippling of Hawk, etc)

I think the original Marvel run is a solid framework from which to build.
I love the more military tone of the first 2 years. Even the gimmicky vehicles were introduced pretty well. Only real winceworthy moment from the first 2 years that springs to mind is Doc's snowball. I hate that, so incredibly juvenile. :lol:
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