The Angel DVD-rewatching society-Ep14 Smile Time

Drop any comments about Joss Whedon's Angel, Spike or any of the related titles in this space, whether you have a soul or not.

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Postby Moscow Watcher » Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:51 pm

Sue, thanks for Spike Time working moments pics! I never saw them before. Now I wonder how they did the shots when he is walking.

Cheryl, thanks for Arthelius cover. I'll try to make another manip: Buffy hugging Fauna. Bauna4ever! Femslash rulez!

But seriously, the more I read Shadow Puppets the more I love Fauna. :))) Poor girl who tried to fit in with the crowd of evil puppets.
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Postby DihcarEM » Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:25 pm

Jean-Vic wrote:I have a name. Talk to me, not about me. My behaviour is not driven by fear of Spike taking over, as I believe what BL and Ryall said. My behaviour is driven by Dihcar who posts on an ANGEL forum and talks about nothing but Spike. If he does talk about Angel, it's to say he douesn't care about his story. If that's the case, why is he at an Angel board?? I would love to talk about nothing but Angel, but I talk about others because they have stories to tell as well. It's not all about Angel, or Spike, or Gunn or Wesley or whoever else. It's about these people, centred around the lead, living their lives fighting evil. But, I'm fed up with this now. I've spoken to Dihcar numerous times and I still can't stand the guy so I will refrain from ever replying in the future, or reading his posts. It would make my experience here ten times more enjoyable.

Jean-Vic wrote:And Cheryl, I wouldn't take dihcar up on that invitation. I did a long time ago and he has a strange way of twisting things to make Spike the better. Apparently, Spike running from Angel in In The Dark and getting help to bring him down was Spike being merciful. As was using dirty tactics to capture him in Season 2, and beating him with a crowbar instead of taking him on one on one. Funny how the big bad Spike needed slayer assistance and a crowbar to get the balls to take on Angel. And as for the ONE fight that destiny was: I don't believe Angel was 100% there, unless you call lacking confidence and determination 100%. But again, opinions are opinions. There is no set fact. IMO, Angel is better. Others see Spike as better. Does it matter? No. Just enjoy the damn show and stop moaning when others don't see it your way.


Wow, that lasted how long(the not speaking to me bit)? Two threads before you cracked.
Maybe you need to take a closer look on this board's description, it says: "Drop any comments about Joss Whedon's Angel, Spike or any of the related titles in this space, whether you have a soul or not."

So what do you know, i'm completely in my right to talk about Spike when and how much i like and you don't have a damm thing to say about it. And nor am i going to skipp off to another board, i have been here for about two years before you even showed up.
To me you don't have a name, to me you're that weird kid that keeps following me around and answering my posts or simply continueing to mention me for no reason what so ever.
You know, that time when you were still(allowed) at buffyworld, the good times we had there, you getting banned almost every week, then making up some fake identity to get back in, then getting banned the same day :lol: goodtimes,goodtimes.

You have never spoken to me seriously, or if we did i almost immedeatly found a way to make you lose your temper and show your true self, it's funny how much you act but are never any good at it.
I don't know, should i pity you or simply laugh at you? I think i will do both, i can't wait to see what you come up next with to try and convince people that you actually like Spike and are not a Angel-fanboy.

What's also funny, you're last post is filled with reasons again why you think Angel is better. But all it does is prove you have absolutly no knowledge of fighting,martial arts in real-life.
I atleast have come to realize that while i do have the knowledge, it doesn't always match with these shows, because they are fictional and there are alot of inconsistantcies. The creator(who you despise oww so much) Joss didn't create these shows with fighting as the main-plot. So while these fights can be analyzed, it holds little to no value of supremacy.
So yes, you can believe that Angel is better, there is absolutly nothing wrong with that.
What i do suggest you work on, is accept that there are people that view Spike as better and they are also not wrong and it's not up to you to set them straight.

Seeya
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Postby Jean-Vic » Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:29 pm

cheryl wrote:
Thanks Jean Vic and FTR, I don't care how many times Spike is able to beat on Angel. Between the two, Angel is my favorite. I don't need to see Angel beat up on anyone to know that he is a super character, the man, the Hero of his series. I think that was made pretty apparent by watching the series both PB and PB. (Pre beating and Post beating). In all reality, that fight scene did not leave Spike sitting in a very good light as his goal was to "beat Angel" at any cost. I do think perhaps by the end of the series, Spike had spent enough time with Angel that he learned from him. I hope so anyway. While Spike will never "be" Angel, I think his presense in Spike's life can keep Spike on the right road. If he is willing, he can learn a lot from Angel.



You're welcome, Cheryl. As far as I am concerned, one fight changes nothing for me. Angel is still my favourite. He is still the best champion, fighter, lover or whatever else on the shows, IMO. He's also the most interesting character on the show, IMO. So what if I prefer him to Spike, or think he can beat Spike in a future fight, or deserves to be human more than Spike, or has suffered more than Spike, or has better dress sense than Spike or whatever I think? What does it matter in the grand scale of things? Nothing. My opinion is my opinion, as is Deb's opinion and yours and anyone elses' opinion. Opinions are there for a reason. I formed mine from things I saw, including fighting ability and role as a champion etc, as did everyone else.

Like you Cheryl, I don't need to see Angel beat anyone to know he is amazing and, IMO, better than other characters at certain things. I just wish people wouldn't moan on at me because I hold him in higher regard in some areas than others. Would all of you be shocked if I said I think Angel is second as a fighter to Buffy, or nowhere near as intelligent as Fred, or nowhere near as astute as Spike, or nowhere near as compassionate and loving as Cordelia? I don't think Angel is the best at everything. Maybe some of you should do the same for Spike. It helps you appreciate the character more when you see that they are not all powerful, or wise or whatever.

On the show, the writers did something with Angel and Spike that I loved. They cancelled each other out. It was part of their dynamic. Angel's failings were cancelled by Spike's strengths and vice versa. Angel is a tactician, while Spike is the go to guy. They have there benefits and failings that cancel each other out. Spike is more astute, but Angel is more intelligent. Angel is a better fighter, yet Spike can adapt more easily. The list goes on. Why don't we all look at it like that and stop hating people who say something about a character. If I say Angel is better at fighting, just remember that Spike is better than Angel at something.They can be equals, you know. Where one fails, the other prospers and vice versa. It's why they make a lethal team. Just check out A Hole In The World to see that.
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Postby deannaB » Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:42 pm

Can't say I care for that magazine's manip. Scale's not even close. It looks like she's holding one of the DST plush Puppet Angels, except for the fact that it actually looks like him.

One thing that I find interesting is that the puppeteer who performed the part of Angel was also Count Freddie Blah in Greg the Bunny (with Seth Green), so he was behind two vampire puppets on TV! Now if only he could have also been The Count on Sesame Street, he would have been [Count Voice] Three! Three vampire puppets! [/Count Voice]

Image
Three vampire puppets.

Image
Four vampire puppets

Also, the puppeteer for Grufus was also Frank the Pug in Men In Black, making that two dog roles.

Here's the credits for Drew Massey (Angel)
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0557297/
http://www.tbs.com/stories/story/0,,103956,00.html

Victor Yerrid (Polo)
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0947662/
http://www.tbs.com/stories/story/0,,103960,00.html

and Tim Blaney (Grufus)
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0087456/

Both Massey and Yerrid have worked with Jim Henson's Muppets, Crank Yankers, Robot Chicken, Greg the Bunny (Yerrid was Tardy Turtle), Men In Black, and tons of other credits. Hmm, Massey's also one of the chickens in the Foster Farms ads. And both are in the cast of the monthly Muppet improv in Hollywood, along with Brian Henson. Next one's September 29th. Must go see.
http://www.puppetup.com/index.htm
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Postby BrianLynch » Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:44 pm

Whoa. We should have that Angel/Spike/Count pic in the SHADOW PUPPETS collected.
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Postby Deborahmm » Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:27 pm

BrianLynch wrote:These threads often deteriorate into the same discussion.


Heh! Noticed that, have you?
Aargh! 'Shippers! There goes the neighbourhood.
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Postby Jean-Vic » Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:54 pm

DihcarEM wrote:
Wow, that lasted how long(the not speaking to me bit)? Two threads before you cracked.
Maybe you need to take a closer look on this board's description, it says: "Drop any comments about Joss Whedon's Angel, Spike or any of the related titles in this space, whether you have a soul or not."

So what do you know, i'm completely in my right to talk about Spike when and how much i like and you don't have a damm thing to say about it. And nor am i going to skipp off to another board, i have been here for about two years before you even showed up.
To me you don't have a name, to me you're that weird kid that keeps following me around and answering my posts or simply continueing to mention me for no reason what so ever.
You know, that time when you were still(allowed) at buffyworld, the good times we had there, you getting banned almost every week, then making up some fake identity to get back in, then getting banned the same day :lol: goodtimes,goodtimes.

You have never spoken to me seriously, or if we did i almost immedeatly found a way to make you lose your temper and show your true self, it's funny how much you act but are never any good at it.
I don't know, should i pity you or simply laugh at you? I think i will do both, i can't wait to see what you come up next with to try and convince people that you actually like Spike and are not a Angel-fanboy.

What's also funny, you're last post is filled with reasons again why you think Angel is better. But all it does is prove you have absolutly no knowledge of fighting,martial arts in real-life.
I atleast have come to realize that while i do have the knowledge, it doesn't always match with these shows, because they are fictional and there are alot of inconsistantcies. The creator(who you despise oww so much) Joss didn't create these shows with fighting as the main-plot. So while these fights can be analyzed, it holds little to no value of supremacy.
So yes, you can believe that Angel is better, there is absolutly nothing wrong with that.
What i do suggest you work on, is accept that there are people that view Spike as better and they are also not wrong and it's not up to you to set them straight.

Seeya


Wasn't speakign to you. Was speaking about you. Difference.

Yeah, I was at Buffyworld and I have been told why I was banned by someone who knew why. Apparently, I was 7 posts from administrative access and Nikki didn't want me to have it so she banned me. That simple. That's not fair, so I found another way on. Banned every week? I believe I got on there later on, and still no one knows. I win.

We spoke numerous times and we were very civil and polite, but then you started getting rude with other posters who didn't agree with you. What was that about again?? Oh yeah, you talking about fights. I watched while I was there and not and you were so rude it was untrue. There were so many people who disliked you, it's untrue. I don't like rude people. You're rude, so I don't like you.

Again, don't believe I like Spike, but is anyone here in my head?? Does anyone know what I think or feel?? Let me answer that... NO! When it comes to saying what I like and don't like, my word is law as it is for everyone else personally. You can all doubt me, but it makes it no less true. Oh, and not an actor either. I have no passion for that easy way out. On the road to being a barrister actually so there we go.

No, I have not got the same knowledge of martial arts that you do, nor do I have the ego. Just because you're a martial artist doesn't make your word law.

Yes, we can analyse the fights but they have no bearing on the plot. So why then do you insist on bringing it up on every forum? On here, and Buffyworld, you only ever posted to say that Spike was a warrior and that Angel played dirty. I brought it up in two threads to make a point that I noticed in Angel, but you just talk about it for the sake of it.

And thanks, I will continue believing Angel is better. You continue thinking that of Spike and I will respect your belief. Never was it my intention to try and change people, but to discuss. Not my fault people always take offence because I don't believe Spike is the greatest character ever. Not my fault a lot of Spike fans I've spoken to are such horrible characters. Those people that bullied me at BW were Spike fans. The two main bullies at the C/A site were Spike fans. See a trend here? Funny that. I still hope though. I have met some very nice Spike fans in my time.

And yes, I am an Angel fan and I love the character. That doesn't make me a bad person. Now, amybe you could grow a pair and say the same about Spike. Remember Buffyworld?? When we would ask whether Spike was your favourite and you would deny it vehemently, even though you talked about nothing else and even had his pic as an avatar?? Good times. Good times.

Now, leave me alone. I want to talk to people that actually matter, and you really don't matter to me. Wax on. Wax off, Sensei.
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Postby DihcarEM » Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:13 am

Jean-Vic wrote:Yeah, I was at Buffyworld and I have been told why I was banned by someone who knew why. Apparently, I was 7 posts from administrative access and Nikki didn't want me to have it so she banned me. That simple. That's not fair, so I found another way on. Banned every week? I believe I got on there later on, and still no one knows. I win.

We spoke numerous times and we were very civil and polite, but then you started getting rude with other posters who didn't agree with you. What was that about again?? Oh yeah, you talking about fights. I watched while I was there and not and you were so rude it was untrue. There were so many people who disliked you, it's untrue. I don't like rude people. You're rude, so I don't like you.


Haha, what fantasy-world are you living in? You got banned, multiple times for attacking people and calling them names. One of the reasons why your Reputation was always well below zero, one of the only ones at that board. You never won. :twisted:

You were already repremanded several times for your rude behaviour before we even spoke and you quickly showed your dislike for me because i was unwilling to accept your fanboyish believes.
My goal was never to be popular, unlike you that sort of thing doesn't intrest me. And while i wasn't popular, my rep atleast was always well above yours.

Again, don't believe I like Spike, but is anyone here in my head?? Does anyone know what I think or feel?? Let me answer that... NO! When it comes to saying what I like and don't like, my word is law as it is for everyone else personally. You can all doubt me, but it makes it no less true. Oh, and not an actor either. I have no passion for that easy way out. On the road to being a barrister actually so there we go.


Well since you yourself stated that your word is law, then it's a 100% certain that you hate Spike, you're just to scared to show your true nature.
I mean you were an avid member, if not founder of the "Spike-hate club" and the "Angel: world of the champion" thread,haha, that says it all.
You are again just trying to find a way to express your believes, you hold back because this forum is pretty much neutral, so you can't simply bash Spike. However there have been some signs to your actual feelings, your dislike for Joss,Spike have shown trough, and i'm not the only one that has noticed them.

Yes, we can analyse the fights but they have no bearing on the plot. So why then do you insist on bringing it up on every forum? On here, and Buffyworld, you only ever posted to say that Spike was a warrior and that Angel played dirty. I brought it up in two threads to make a point that I noticed in Angel, but you just talk about it for the sake of it.

And thanks, I will continue believing Angel is better. You continue thinking that of Spike and I will respect your belief. Never was it my intention to try and change people, but to discuss. Not my fault people always take offence because I don't believe Spike is the greatest character ever. Not my fault a lot of Spike fans I've spoken to are such horrible characters. Those people that bullied me at BW were Spike fans. The two main bullies at the C/A site were Spike fans. See a trend here? Funny that. I still hope though. I have met some very nice Spike fans in my time.


If you had any form of intelligence you would have noticed that after every episode thread were you make false statements and spout over the top crap on how unbeatable Angel is, i always answerd with the same over the top crap about Spike, just to get a rise out of you. And what do you know, it worked everytime. And atleast i was responding from the first episode, you only came in to enforce what you believe.

Oh, did little jv get bullied :cry: .
And why do you think that they take offence? It's not because you don't accept Spike as the greatest character ever, it's simply your constant putting down of SPike in every way you can.
Then again, i am trying to talk sense into a person that thinks it's ok to bully little Spike fan-grils, how sick is that.
Hmm, the biggest Spike fanboys at a C/A site, yeah right. And even so, i would still give them the benefit of the doubt, since they are the unknown aspect, you i already know how you operate.

And yes, I am an Angel fan and I love the character. That doesn't make me a bad person. Now, amybe you could grow a pair and say the same about Spike. Remember Buffyworld?? When we would ask whether Spike was your favourite and you would deny it vehemently, even though you talked about nothing else and even had his pic as an avatar?? Good times. Good times.


No, that doesn't make you a bad person, but the way you seem to spread your believes are questionable. Especially your zero-tolerance against Spike-fans. And your word isn't gospel-truth, it's not up to you to always set someone straight when they say their opinions.
Are you back in that fantasy-world of yours? I never denied that SPike was my favorite character, close second Buffy and many other, including Tara,Anya,ect. This has changed since then, but i never did deny it.
My constant talking about Spike was for a reason, you being one of them, your constant bashing of SPike annoyed me and no one was intrested in talking to you or setting you straight, they were just ignoring you.
I succeeded in getting you banned(second and third time), especially that time you tryed again with a fake identity, your words sounded completely the same, i sent an email to Nikki to alarm her, and in less then two hours you were again banned(FOR LIFE,haha). That's what you get for attacking people with such unwarrented hatred, i really do pity you.

No, I have not got the same knowledge of martial arts that you do, nor do I have the ego. Just because you're a martial artist doesn't make your word law.
Now, leave me alone. I want to talk to people that actually matter, and you really don't matter to me. Wax on. Wax off, Sensei


Well you just showed that you absolutly have no knowledge of martial arts, i would never accept you as an apprentice. So while i'm flatterd that you consider me you (Sensei)Master, i decline to accept it. :D
Nor did i say my word is law, you said that, look above.
I already stated that any knowledge i do have in real-life doesn't really work with the shows. The writers were never intrested in fighting,combat as the main reasons for the shows. It was the characters and their story that matterd.
As for Angel, me liking Spike better stems from that i don't really like Angel's origin story and the man he used to be. But i have come to like and respect the man he's becoming and while i don't find him anymore special then other characters, he does matter. Just like Spike does, who does remain my favorite for other reasons.

And for the last time, if you do want to continue this childish debate, then PM me, becuse this isn't the thread for it, so stop trying to make yourself look good with lies.
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Postby pshand05 » Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:32 am

Jean-Vic wrote:Again, don't believe I like Spike, but is anyone here in my head?? Does anyone know what I think or feel?? Let me answer that... NO! When it comes to saying what I like and don't like, my word is law as it is for everyone else personally. You can all doubt me, but it makes it no less true. Oh, and not an actor either. I have no passion for that easy way out. On the road to being a barrister actually so there we go.

No, I have not got the same knowledge of martial arts that you do, nor do I have the ego. Just because you're a martial artist doesn't make your word law.

Yes, we can analyse the fights but they have no bearing on the plot. So why then do you insist on bringing it up on every forum? On here, and Buffyworld, you only ever posted to say that Spike was a warrior and that Angel played dirty. I brought it up in two threads to make a point that I noticed in Angel, but you just talk about it for the sake of it.

And thanks, I will continue believing Angel is better. You continue thinking that of Spike and I will respect your belief. Never was it my intention to try and change people, but to discuss. Not my fault people always take offence because I don't believe Spike is the greatest character ever. Not my fault a lot of Spike fans I've spoken to are such horrible characters. Those people that bullied me at BW were Spike fans. The two main bullies at the C/A site were Spike fans. See a trend here? Funny that. I still hope though. I have met some very nice Spike fans in my time.

And yes, I am an Angel fan and I love the character. That doesn't make me a bad person. Now, amybe you could grow a pair and say the same about Spike. Remember Buffyworld?? When we would ask whether Spike was your favourite and you would deny it vehemently, even though you talked about nothing else and even had his pic as an avatar?? Good times. Good times.

Now, leave me alone. I want to talk to people that actually matter, and you really don't matter to me. Wax on. Wax off, Sensei.




If any subtly took shots at Angel, Wesley, or any other character I love the way that you take shots at Spike, I'd say something too. I don't think Spike is the greatest character, and it's kind of strange that you're making the generalization that everyone defending Spike from you are people who believe Spike is "the greatest character ever." Sometimes I do think Angel is better. Sometimes I think Spike is better. Sometimes I think Wesley is better. Same with Fred, Doyle, Cordy, and any character on Buffy as well. I just love the characters in general. If I saw any one of those characters given the Jean-Vic treatment, I'd say something.
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Postby BrianLynch » Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:46 am

I gotta say, before I started writing for IDW, my favorite characters were Xander, Angel, Wesley, Lorne and Spike. But after watching all the shows for weeks straight (gotta get ready for AFTER THE FALL, you see), I can fully appreciate how rich and entertaining each and every character is. It's a rare show that pulls that off. Hell, even the villains could support their own solo outings, they're all so rich.

And I will add, not to bring it back to AFTER THE FALL, that one of my favorite characters to write shocked me, plain and simple. It's mostly due to Mr. Whedon's ideas for the character and what we can do with him him or her, but I am still surprised. In fact, I loved writing this character so much that they definitely got more face-time in issue 2 than previously planned.
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Postby sockmonkeyhere » Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:57 pm

BrianLynch wrote:These threads often deteriorate into the same discussion.


I had Cheerios for breakfast this morning. Discuss. :lol:
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Postby sockmonkeyhere » Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:11 pm

deannaB wrote:One thing that I find interesting is that the puppeteer who performed the part of Angel was also Count Freddie Blah in Greg the Bunny (with Seth Green), so he was behind two vampire puppets on TV! Now if only he could have also been The Count on Sesame Street, he would have been [Count Voice] Three! Three vampire puppets! [/Count Voice]


Bwaaaahahahahaha!!! I love it.

sue and deanna, thanks so much for the behind-the-scenes puppet stories and photos! Very entertaining and informative stuff.

*releases a shower of Mr. Moose ping-pong balls in your honor*
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Postby sueworld » Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:32 pm

BrianLynch wrote:
And I will add, not to bring it back to AFTER THE FALL, that one of my favorite characters to write shocked me, plain and simple. It's mostly due to Mr. Whedon's ideas for the character and what we can do with him him or her, but I am still surprised. In fact, I loved writing this character so much that they definitely got more face-time in issue 2 than previously planned.


*wails and rends her garments*

I want Wesley back...... :cry:
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Postby Angelrama » Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:38 pm

BrianLynch wrote:I gotta say, before I started writing for IDW, my favorite characters were Xander, Angel, Wesley, Lorne and Spike. But after watching all the shows for weeks straight (gotta get ready for AFTER THE FALL, you see), I can fully appreciate how rich and entertaining each and every character is. It's a rare show that pulls that off. Hell, even the villains could support their own solo outings, they're all so rich.

And I will add, not to bring it back to AFTER THE FALL, that one of my favorite characters to write shocked me, plain and simple. It's mostly due to Mr. Whedon's ideas for the character and what we can do with him him or her, but I am still surprised. In fact, I loved writing this character so much that they definitely got more face-time in issue 2 than previously planned.


hmm.I wonder if its Illyria? I know Joss loves that character, and I think he/she (since she is a Godking traped in a females body) is a fascinating character whose arc was cut short and I know Joss had more plans for her.
Personally...I kinda wanna slay the dragon...Let's go to work!
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Postby Moscow Watcher » Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:13 pm

Angelrama wrote:hmm.I wonder if its Illyria? I know Joss loves that character, and I think he/she (since she is a Godking traped in a females body) is a fascinating character whose arc was cut short and I know Joss had more plans for her.


I wonder if it's soulless Fred...
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