The Angel DVD-rewatching society-Ep14 Smile Time

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Postby sueworld » Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:53 pm

Oh boy, I'm not going to get drawn into that old argument again.

It never leads to anywhere good. :roll:
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Postby cheryl » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:15 pm

sueworld wrote:
Until the last bit of the seven year span, Angel was the good guy and Spike was the bad guy.


But it wasn't as cut and dried as that was it? Spike acted less like the shows 'villain' much earlier then just the last half of season seven.

But I'm sure you wouldn't see it that way.

:roll:


Are you kidding me? Out of curiosity, just how much sooner did you see Spike NOT as a villian. I am talking about more than fleeting moments of goodness here. I can really only think of two moments, from season 2-6, in which Spike DID act like anything other than the villian. Meaning that he had nothing to gain from his actions, someone wasn't forcing him to behave a certain way, etc..
Those two times are when he took the beating from Glory to protect Dawn and when he stayed around to help the Scoobies fight, in Buffy's absense.

If we take a closer look at Spike's history, from season 2 on....tried to end mankind by reassembling the Judge and tried to kill Buffy on numerous occasions in season 2.

Season 3. Kidnapped Willow and Xander.

Season 4, worked with Adam against the Scoobies, ran to LA to torture Angel for the Ring. Tried to bite Willow.

Season 5 was Spike's best season for acting "good" and in this season he threatens Buffy that one day she would wonder and he would slip in to have himself a very good day. (Death threat) He ties her up and threatens to kill her if she doesn't confess her undying love, has sex with the Buffybot, which may not be all that evil but it is disturbing and not really the action of a hero.

Season 6 is the worst, imo. Spike threatens and taunts Buffy. Is abusive.
Tries to rape her. Hides the demon eggs for the Dr., sings his heart out that he wants to kill her, is cruel when he finds out that hitting Buffy won't hurt him, sings the never ending "You came back wrong, you belong in the darkness with me, I'm all you've got" song. Has sex with Anya, despite claiming to love Buffy...

So, no, I guess I don't think of it like you do. Spike was never the BIG bad, he was usually working in some way WITH a bad. Working for what? To destory Buffy ( another slayer) and the Scoobies. As many things that Spike did for "good", he did something bad. Very bad.
That doesn't however mean that I dislike Spike, it just means that I saw everything that happened in the series, opposed to a rose colored view of what I wanted to see happen.
Spike's true journey, to becoming a hero, did not start until the very last seconds of the series. The moment he stopped making everything about a girl and did it because it was the right thing to do. The moment he was willing to sacrifice everything for... everybody else.
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Postby pshand05 » Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:56 pm

cheryl wrote:
sueworld wrote:
Until the last bit of the seven year span, Angel was the good guy and Spike was the bad guy.


But it wasn't as cut and dried as that was it? Spike acted less like the shows 'villain' much earlier then just the last half of season seven.

But I'm sure you wouldn't see it that way.

:roll:


Are you kidding me? Out of curiosity, just how much sooner did you see Spike NOT as a villian. I am talking about more than fleeting moments of goodness here. I can really only think of two moments, from season 2-6, in which Spike DID act like anything other than the villian. Meaning that he had nothing to gain from his actions, someone wasn't forcing him to behave a certain way, etc..
Those two times are when he took the beating from Glory to protect Dawn and when he stayed around to help the Scoobies fight, in Buffy's absense.

If we take a closer look at Spike's history, from season 2 on....tried to end mankind by reassembling the Judge and tried to kill Buffy on numerous occasions in season 2.

Season 3. Kidnapped Willow and Xander.

Season 4, worked with Adam against the Scoobies, ran to LA to torture Angel for the Ring. Tried to bite Willow.

Season 5 was Spike's best season for acting "good" and in this season he threatens Buffy that one day she would wonder and he would slip in to have himself a very good day. (Death threat) He ties her up and threatens to kill her if she doesn't confess her undying love, has sex with the Buffybot, which may not be all that evil but it is disturbing and not really the action of a hero.

Season 6 is the worst, imo. Spike threatens and taunts Buffy. Is abusive.
Tries to rape her. Hides the demon eggs for the Dr., sings his heart out that he wants to kill her, is cruel when he finds out that hitting Buffy won't hurt him, sings the never ending "You came back wrong, you belong in the darkness with me, I'm all you've got" song. Has sex with Anya, despite claiming to love Buffy...

So, no, I guess I don't think of it like you do. Spike was never the BIG bad, he was usually working in some way WITH a bad. Working for what? To destory Buffy ( another slayer) and the Scoobies. As many things that Spike did for "good", he did something bad. Very bad.
That doesn't however mean that I dislike Spike, it just means that I saw everything that happened in the series, opposed to a rose colored view of what I wanted to see happen.
Spike's true journey, to becoming a hero, did not start until the very last seconds of the series. The moment he stopped making everything about a girl and did it because it was the right thing to do. The moment he was willing to sacrifice everything for... everybody else.


Because Buffy was an angel to Spike in Season Six. She never verbally abused him, all she did was give him roses, fragrant coconut lotion, and gallons and gallons of otter blood every morning.

(/Sarcasm)

With the Buffy and Spike relationship, Spike was ready to be a man for Buffy. It was she who dragged him back into the darkness, into what he was trying not to be.

Take this example for instance.

In Season Four when Spike FIRST GETS his chip, he still has the desire to harm Buffy, to kill her.

However, in Tabula Rasa, when Spike forgets who he is, that desire is NO LONGER THERE. It's not the chip. It's not like he's trying to hurt her (because, at that point, he could), it's just that he doesn't WANT to. If it was only the chip that was making him a hero, then why didn't he kill Buffy when he had the chance? Because he loved her. Selflessly. It was her who made that relationship as dark as what it was.

I'm not understanding the Spike-dissing here, guys.
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Postby Deborahmm » Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:15 am

cheryl wrote:[

Deborahmm said Spike's laughing so hard that he doesn't even try to hit Angel back, except to push Angel off, and to thump him against the wall to try to dislodge him from his arm after Angel bites him. Well, OBviously the fact that Angel can totally beat up on someone who's not fighting back proves that he's the better... wait, what is it supposed to prove again??

That Jean Vic was paying attention to what was shown on screen? That puppet Angel beat Spike?

Another question could be what would someone be trying to prove with the statement that Angel can totally beat up on someone who is laughing so hard that they can't defend themself or who isn't fighting back. Looks like the pot and kettle to me.


Could you not misquote me? It wasn't me who posted what you have bolded there. Please edit your comment.
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Postby Deborahmm » Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:24 am

pshand05 wrote:I'm not understanding the Spike-dissing here, guys.


Like Sueworld said, this is an old argument and basically the people on either side of it are never going to agree. People see what they want to see in the show - what will support their own POV - and they refuse to see anything else. After all these years no one is going to change their minds. I know I'm not going to based on canon so far, without fresh evidence - and in this context fresh evidence means more text and that we won't get until After the Fall comes out.
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Postby Deborahmm » Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:27 am

cheryl wrote:Spike's true journey, to becoming a hero, did not start until the very last seconds of the series. The moment he stopped making everything about a girl and did it because it was the right thing to do. The moment he was willing to sacrifice everything for... everybody else.


I think you have a very narrow definition of heroism. Does it just apply to Spike, I wonder, or is the same for everyone?

Not that I want to discuss it any further. There really is no point. We'll just end up going round in the usual tired old circles.
Last edited by Deborahmm on Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby sueworld » Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:04 am

That doesn't however mean that I dislike Spike,


Yeah, yeah, yeah,...we believe ya love...no really we do..... :roll:
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Postby Shade of Pale » Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:27 am

I think we're drifting OT. Could we get back to discussing the episode, please ? Thanks.


pshand05 wrote:Wesley has been wanting her so bad for so long and, him being my favorite character in the Buffyverse, I was thrilled to see such a long wait finally pay off.
.


I just wished that there would have been more set-up to Fred's changing feelings and a little more time together. Their scene at the end was very touching.


pshand05 wrote:That's really the best part about this episode; each character reacting differently to seeing Angel as a puppet. Fred wants to hug him, Spike wants to laugh at him, Lorne starts spitting out things about puppet cancer (lmao), and Wesley is book-man.



The reactions of each of the characters was priceless.
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Postby Deborahmm » Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:36 am

Shade of Pale wrote:I think we're drifting OT. Could we get back to discussing the episode, please ? Thanks.


With pleasure.


Shade of Pale wrote:
pshand05 wrote:Wesley has been wanting her so bad for so long and, him being my favorite character in the Buffyverse, I was thrilled to see such a long wait finally pay off.
.


I just wished that there would have been more set-up to Fred's changing feelings and a little more time together. Their scene at the end was very touching.



Me too. It does all feel very rushed. Up until You're Welcome, there's no real hint that Fred sees Wesley as anything but a friend and yet suddenly, bam! I suppose things do happen like that in RL (When Harry Met Sally?) but it's a little jarring all the same. It also means that the viewers, who are cognizant of what happened in seasons 3&4 with Connor and how Fred reacted to Wesley then - not to mention some of his behaviour towards her in season 4 when he was all dark- have to do a double-take and remember that Wesley and Fred themselves don't really remember this.

It would help if you knew how much they do remember. Obviously, they know about Jasmine but with all memory of Connor gone, the darkest side of that story and how it impacted on them is gone as well, which explains why Wesley is (until AHitW) back to how he was at the beginning of season 3.


pshand05 wrote:That's really the best part about this episode; each character reacting differently to seeing Angel as a puppet. Fred wants to hug him, Spike wants to laugh at him, Lorne starts spitting out things about puppet cancer (lmao), and Wesley is book-man.



The reactions of each of the characters was priceless.[/quote]

That's a great observation, pshand05 . Their reactions do say a lot about their individual relationships with Angel. Also, I know what you mean about Wesley. I love him too. I'll be very sad if he doesn't come back in After the Fall. [/b]
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Postby Shade of Pale » Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:05 am

Deborahmm wrote:Me too. It does all feel very rushed. Up until You're Welcome, there's no real hint that Fred sees Wesley as anything but a friend and yet suddenly, bam! I suppose things do happen like that in RL (When Harry Met Sally?) but it's a little jarring all the same. It also means that the viewers, who are cognizant of what happened in seasons 3&4 with Connor and how Fred reacted to Wesley then - not to mention some of his behaviour towards her in season 4 when he was all dark- have to do a double-take and remember that Wesley and Fred themselves don't really remember this.

It would help if you knew how much they do remember. Obviously, they know about Jasmine but with all memory of Connor gone, the darkest side of that story and how it impacted on them is gone as well, which explains why Wesley is (until AHitW) back to how he was at the beginning of season 3.



Great point - and you're perfectly right, it would help if we knew how much they remembered.
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Postby Deborahmm » Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:51 am

Shade of Pale wrote:
Deborahmm wrote:Me too. It does all feel very rushed. Up until You're Welcome, there's no real hint that Fred sees Wesley as anything but a friend and yet suddenly, bam! I suppose things do happen like that in RL (When Harry Met Sally?) but it's a little jarring all the same. It also means that the viewers, who are cognizant of what happened in seasons 3&4 with Connor and how Fred reacted to Wesley then - not to mention some of his behaviour towards her in season 4 when he was all dark- have to do a double-take and remember that Wesley and Fred themselves don't really remember this.

It would help if you knew how much they do remember. Obviously, they know about Jasmine but with all memory of Connor gone, the darkest side of that story and how it impacted on them is gone as well, which explains why Wesley is (until AHitW) back to how he was at the beginning of season 3.



Great point - and you're perfectly right, it would help if we knew how much they remembered.


I wonder if the whole mindwipe thing will come up in After the Fall? I suppose with Wesley and Fred both dead, there's no real reason why it should but it's be interesting if it did.
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Postby Deborahmm » Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:31 am

Going off topic again just for a moment to ask, how do you delete comments? There'a delete option on the edit button but if you click on it, delete just seems to disappear.

If someone can tell me, I will of course delete this comment. Heh.
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Postby Deborahmm » Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:10 am

Shade of Pale wrote:
Great point - and you're perfectly right, it would help if we knew how much they remembered.


Actually, thinking about this and thinking about that Wesley/Angel scene in Smile Time again, it's very interesting to see how easily Angel has fallen back into his old pattern of communication with Wes - ie. Wesley being his best friend and him seeking Wesley's advice. It seems he really has forgiven him for the whole Connor thing - either that or because of the way Wesley reacts to him with no memory of those events, it's easier for Angel to behave as if they never happened at all.

For that matter, when did Angel get in the habit of asking Wesley's advice? I'm trying to remember. I suppose it must have been after the Darla debacle in season 2 when he came back to his friends and asked to work for them. Previous to that, their relationship was rather different with Wesley hero-worshipping Angel and more-or-less wanting to be him (as seen in Guise Will Be Guys). Ironic, too, that in a sense, Wesley did become Angel in season 4 - or at least, he became the dark, ruthless man that Angel might have been if he hadn't had his friends to support him.
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Postby cheryl » Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:36 am

pshand05 wrote:
cheryl wrote:
sueworld wrote:
Until the last bit of the seven year span, Angel was the good guy and Spike was the bad guy.


But it wasn't as cut and dried as that was it? Spike acted less like the shows 'villain' much earlier then just the last half of season seven.

But I'm sure you wouldn't see it that way.

:roll:


Are you kidding me? Out of curiosity, just how much sooner did you see Spike NOT as a villian. I am talking about more than fleeting moments of goodness here. I can really only think of two moments, from season 2-6, in which Spike DID act like anything other than the villian. Meaning that he had nothing to gain from his actions, someone wasn't forcing him to behave a certain way, etc..
Those two times are when he took the beating from Glory to protect Dawn and when he stayed around to help the Scoobies fight, in Buffy's absense.

If we take a closer look at Spike's history, from season 2 on....tried to end mankind by reassembling the Judge and tried to kill Buffy on numerous occasions in season 2.

Season 3. Kidnapped Willow and Xander.

Season 4, worked with Adam against the Scoobies, ran to LA to torture Angel for the Ring. Tried to bite Willow.

Season 5 was Spike's best season for acting "good" and in this season he threatens Buffy that one day she would wonder and he would slip in to have himself a very good day. (Death threat) He ties her up and threatens to kill her if she doesn't confess her undying love, has sex with the Buffybot, which may not be all that evil but it is disturbing and not really the action of a hero.

Season 6 is the worst, imo. Spike threatens and taunts Buffy. Is abusive.
Tries to rape her. Hides the demon eggs for the Dr., sings his heart out that he wants to kill her, is cruel when he finds out that hitting Buffy won't hurt him, sings the never ending "You came back wrong, you belong in the darkness with me, I'm all you've got" song. Has sex with Anya, despite claiming to love Buffy...

So, no, I guess I don't think of it like you do. Spike was never the BIG bad, he was usually working in some way WITH a bad. Working for what? To destory Buffy ( another slayer) and the Scoobies. As many things that Spike did for "good", he did something bad. Very bad.
That doesn't however mean that I dislike Spike, it just means that I saw everything that happened in the series, opposed to a rose colored view of what I wanted to see happen.
Spike's true journey, to becoming a hero, did not start until the very last seconds of the series. The moment he stopped making everything about a girl and did it because it was the right thing to do. The moment he was willing to sacrifice everything for... everybody else.


Because Buffy was an angel to Spike in Season Six. She never verbally abused him, all she did was give him roses, fragrant coconut lotion, and gallons and gallons of otter blood every morning.

(/Sarcasm)

With the Buffy and Spike relationship, Spike was ready to be a man for Buffy. It was she who dragged him back into the darkness, into what he was trying not to be.

Take this example for instance.

In Season Four when Spike FIRST GETS his chip, he still has the desire to harm Buffy, to kill her.

However, in Tabula Rasa, when Spike forgets who he is, that desire is NO LONGER THERE. It's not the chip. It's not like he's trying to hurt her (because, at that point, he could), it's just that he doesn't WANT to. If it was only the chip that was making him a hero, then why didn't he kill Buffy when he had the chance? Because he loved her. Selflessly. It was her who made that relationship as dark as what it was.

I'm not understanding the Spike-dissing here, guys.



Sorry to return to the OT part of the conversation we were having here but I wanted to respond to a few things, Shade of pale.

pshand05 Nobody here is dissing Spike. I think that notion alone is what makes this situation so frustrating to many fans. It's the attitude that unless you walk this very fine line, one in which the company line is that Spike was good good good, through the entire series run, wasn't really a bad guy, was a misunderstood lonely soul, was a victim to Buffy rather than the abuser, etc, etc, etc, if you don't believe all those things then there is no way you appreciate Spike as a character. That simply isn't true. We have to be honest here and look at EVERYTHING that happened in the series. I think a lot of fans just get sick of the same old crap from the line toters and say you know what, Spike isn't my favorite anyway, the hell with him. It really isn't worth it, on most occasions, to fight the same old song and dance concerning Spike. His die hard fans.

FTR, I like Spike just fine and in many capacities, just not as a love interest for Buffy. Now if THAT means to some people that I am dissing Spike, nothing I can do about it. Buffy is my favorite and her experience while having a physical relationship with Spike was the worst of her life and she has had a few.

Deborahmm If you have no desire to discuss something further, it would probably be a good idea if you didn't throw a question out there, to the other party. Some might see that as nothing more than a contrived effort to get the last word. Or maybe it was just a question you're walking around wondering in the privacy of your own head. Either way, I guess you'll know for sure when we talk about another characters who isn't Spike.

Sueworld Again, I MUST dislike Spike because I don't tow your very narrow road to all that was and wasn't Spike. Open your eyes and live a little. There are many different views on Spike and most of them don't include the notion that he was a shining Hero since he stepped on the scene. It simply isn't what was shown on the series no matter how many times you stomp your foot and say it. Spike was a vampire, Spike spent most of his time trying to kill Buffy and working against the Scoobies. Spike got his soul and changed. Spike is now on the hard and painful road to atonement.

Now you can all tune back in to the on topic conversation of the day.
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Postby sueworld » Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:45 am

Cheryl love, with great respect you haven't got a bloody clue what I think of Spikes character, and I'm quite glad to keep it that way...alright. :roll:

Also this thread is for Smile Time one of my favorite episodes of Angel, not a place to have you or anyone else lecture me over the rights and wrongs of Spikes character. K. :wink:
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