Portrayal of women in comics

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Postby Sprite » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:10 pm

The impression I get more and more is that there is a growing sense of titillation-fatigue. The "angry fanboi" squad which always seem to rear their head in discussions like these with hostility and abuse are quick to set it away as a women problem and usually retort with "shut up and don't read comics if it bothers you so much", but actually a lot of the reactions supporting the arguments set forth in articles like these come from men. Who seem just as annoyed and insulted by the comic woman stereotype as female readers are, and just as demanding for "real women" in comics. Which goes to show that this goes a little beyond women having panties up in a bunch and that it's actually a big, big problem the comics industry is suffering from.
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Postby Sprite » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:06 am

I've talked before about comics that put me off buying them because of the way women are displayed on the cover or within, and I'd like to illustrate this with one of IDW's own titles. Actually on this occasion the visual portrayal of women was not so much the reason for me to drop this book but the last straw - but the argument still holds.

For the past two years, I've been buying the bookend comics of the Infestation crossover events, just to get more of the full story. I won't do that anymore. Here's why:

A large chunk of the problem of the portrayal of women in comics (visual or otherwise, but mostly visual) comes not from the focus on sexiness, period (because there are comics which do that very well, and there are also so-called "T&A comics" where it actually sets the tone of the book - more about that later), but because it shows up in comics where it simply isn't appropriate for the situation and the kind of story it tells (superhero comics are a big example of this) and what's more - risks taking away from the story itself, because it simply has no function therein and ends up being distracting rather than supportive. Let's take a look at the more prominent female characters in the latest Infestation, shall we?

Here's Britt:

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I don't know why cleavage down to the navel has become such a fashion statement for our ink-and-paper girls lately, but it shows up everywhere (also I betcha anything those things aren't real :P ).

Why this is a problem:

From what I can see, CVO is a pretty serious book. A book that, despite, y'know, zombies and vampires and monsters-from-other-dimensions, shows some pretense at realism in both the art and the storytelling.

Well, this isn't realistic. It's about as far from practical as you can get - those things are gonna pop out any minute. (And what's the point of that * shot, anyway?) Britt's portrayal serves only one thing: titillation of male readers. It doesn't support either the character or the story in any way, in fact, it takes away from it. It's not realistic, it's distracting, and readers like me will go "ugh". There is no real, valid function to it.

Unless, you know, you can use those breasts as a weapon, because I could totally see that. :P

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Yeah, vampire chick = hot. I get that. It's a stereotype, but well, vamp chicks have always dressed Teh Sexy. Oh, but we've got more female characters, don't we? Let's have a look:

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FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT'S HOLY, BUTTON UP YOUR SHIRT GIRL! Really, I'm starting to think there's some kind of weird uniform requirement for the comic or something. I'd give her the benefit of the doubt and say she had to dress in a hurry, but five pages later she's still walking around like that. Le sigh.

And Infestation is a crossover event with titles like Transformers and TMNT which I happen to know has a substantional female readership - not very big, perhaps, but it's there. You'd think they'd show some consideration.

But this is what most comics are like, these days. A dominant force of sexualised, titillating portrayal of women that diminishes, not improves, the strength of either the stories or the characters. Regardless of their position or physical strength or skills, these aren't strong characters. They're sexualised characters.
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Postby Sprite » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:42 am

So I mentioned T&A comics and I'd like to talk some more about a comic where it is played to full effect - and not only that, but where it's made an enjoyable reading experiment for both men and women.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you... Gold Digger.

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From the very beginning, there is a lot of focus on T&A. We've got your main female characters with very exaggerated features; ridiculously large breasts, thin waists, sexy clothing... and yet, although they could definitely be considered sexualised to an extent, there's more going on here.

I've been reading Gold Digger from the very beginning and one of the earlier scenes stands out to me; a conversation between Diggers sisters Gina and Brittany, where Brittany tells her nerdy genius sister Gina that she should go out more and meet guys. Gina says "why would guys be interested in me?" And Brittany grabs Gina's sizable breasts, shoves them up in her face and goes "are you KIDDING me?" What follows is a wonderful moment where we see the transition from the shut-in studious Gina to the active, adventurous, treasure- (and man-) hunting archeologist who is the centre of the comic.

And I loved it.

Why it appealed to me as a female reader: for one thing, you can get away with a lot in comedy. The scene where Gina goes "eep" at getting her breasts put up in her face and the subsequent panels of her changing facial expression when she realises how hot guys are - hilarious. And Fred Perry is very good at doing these type of funny scenes.

There is also a sense of closeness between these two sisters that is not in any way sexual. The physical intimacy of one character grabbing the breasts of the other comes from Brittany's pure frustration at her sister's denseness and she makes her point in the most direct, confrontational way possible. Here, the focus on sexuality (presented by Gina's huge breasts) plays a pivotal part in the scene: very functional. It also drives home how strong the bond between the two sisters is; a recurrent theme in the comics. They are completely comfortable with each other.

And third: essentially things are put on their head. As we get to see a lot of the story seen through Gina's eyes, there's a lot of focus on men's sexuality. There is still plenty for male readers to enjoy, but getting a lot of Gina-vision style shots means that female readers are not forgotten and Gold Digger is very much an equal-opportunities comic.

Yes, more about that. A common argument heard whenever the discussion about sexualisation/objectivication of female characters comes up is "but it's not just women! Men are objectivied too!" I could go into that at length, explaining why muscly men in spandex is not an equal substitute for ridiculously-posed big-boobed girls in thongs, but for the time being I shall just refer you all to a Shortpacked comic which says it better and more economically than I can right here: http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/b ... uivalence/

But when it comes to the discussion at hand, what matters is that I can use Gold Digger to illustrate Why It's Not The Same Thing, because in this comic It Is. Take these covers:

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PHOAR.

Along with having Teh Sexiness of male characters full front and centre on covers like these in a way that is usually restricted to just girls in other comics, there are a lot of the aforementioned Gina-vision shots where we pan in on men's buns, men's packages, abs and the like. There are, of course, still a lot of scenes where we get the obligotary boob and ass shots of the girls, along with a whole string of jokes focusing on Teh Sexiness of it all, but this puts things on a more equal footing and tells us that here is a male writer who is aware of both sides of the issue and isn't set on writing and drawing his comic purely for the gratification of men. A rare bunny in the world of comics.

And there is also the fact that Gold Digger isn't just a T&A comic. It offers a lot of things. There's adventure, there's character development, there's happy moments, sad moments, sweet moments... And Fred Perry seems set to out-geek every other comic in existence because pop-culture references and easter eggs are rampant to the point of putting Nick Roche and James Roberts to shame.

This diversity is not exclusive to the story, but extends to the characters as well. It has a huge cast. What's more, a wide variety of female characters, both personality-wise and when it comes to body builds: big, tall, strong, weak, small, old, young, big-breasted, small-breasted. T&A fanservice aside, when it comes to the portrayal of female characters, Gold Digger comes off well, very well indeed. Oh, speaking of female characters, check out this cover:

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What struck me about this cover was that virtually every other comic (with the possible exception of Strangers in Paradise) out there would have taken the opportunity of an issue with the title "Women of..." as an excuse to portray the women in question as sexual and titillating as possible. None of that here. The characters are dressed properly with not a lot amount of skin showing and they are posed in ways that don't accentuate sexuality, but is conform to their personality. And especially with regard to a comic which normally has a lot of focus on sexuality, this choice of portrayal is... striking.

And very,very comforting indeed.
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Postby temple » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:44 pm

From a conversation with Sprite, reprinted here because it's rare that I can muster a semi-cogent argument. On the idea that a comic can never be sexist if it has strong female characters:

I do not think the problem is with the inherent quality of most female characters, but with the way in which they are used in promotions and drawn in relation to their male counterparts.

Britt in the images posted, for example, makes her breasts the focal point of her visual representation; the male members of the team are posed normally during the action, without the need of thrusting their asses or crotches at the reader. You may justify this by her being a 'femme fatale' type character, but that's a whole overused female type in its own right.

If the female characters are as good and as strong as the creators reckon, then they can stand on their own two feet in the comics through their personalities and actions, not through any overt sexualisation on the part of the artists or writers.

Or to put it a cruder way, when the Avengers (or whoever) burst into a supervillain's lair, how come Wolverine looks like he's gonna kick the guy's ass... and Ms. Marvel looks like she's going to **** him off?

You can write the most nuanced, strong role-model female character in the world... but that counts for nothing if you then have her half-naked and lounging like a Frazetta heroine on the cover.

Now before I come off like an Amish prude or something, I am sure as hell not arguing for all female comic characters to wear sackcloth or something; I like the exaggerated heroic proportions of the majority of comic universes, whether that be impossibly beautiful heroines or square-jawed, rippling-with-muscles heroes. What I DO NOT like are the lazy, blatant, cheap sexualised treatment of many of them.

And you know why, those of you who say "meh, it's just comics, calm down?" Because I LOVE comics. I think they're one of the greatest mediums out there, and there are so many fabulous stories being created all the time. And when I try and extol their virtues to people who see them as a juvenile, trashy medium, I am sick and tired of them being able to wave at shelf upon shelf of what looks like a slightly perverted twelve-year-old's inner fantasies.
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Postby Focksbot » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:36 pm

Sprite wrote:The impression I get more and more is that there is a growing sense of titillation-fatigue. The "angry fanboi" squad which always seem to rear their head in discussions like these with hostility and abuse are quick to set it away as a women problem and usually retort with "shut up and don't read comics if it bothers you so much", but actually a lot of the reactions supporting the arguments set forth in articles like these come from men.


The impression you have is right, as far as I know, and what's more, I think groups of them carry out raids whenever they pick up that another pro-women article has been written, and flood the comments sections.

Incidentally, since this is the chit-chat forums, have you been following the Jennifer Hepler debacle in computer game country? All the ire of very self-entitled Bioware fans appears to have been directed at one female writer for 'ruining' their franchises, and when she made a very witty retort on Twitter, she was absolutely crucified, to the point where she's now deleted her Twitter account. She's also mocked for being mildly overweight. Naturally, people claimed the unpleasant treatment was because she was a 'bad writer' and 'unprofessional', but it's easy to see the misogyny driving the worst comments.

So as far as I can see, this is trouble across the whole of geekdom, and anyone who is pro-women and pro-feminism needs to be ready to speak out, not just sit back and think it's all going smoothly. It's an ongoing war, if you ask me.
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Postby Sprite » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:02 pm

I've once read something about a female creator in the video games industry saying it was really really hard working as a woman in the video games world, because you are simply not accepted therein and taken seriously when you're female. Was that her?

(lemme see if I can find the relevant article)

http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2011/11/n ... ege/all/1/

I thinnk the story about the female video games creator showed up in the comments somewhere... (but the article itself is interesting too.)
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Postby temple » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:56 pm

Focksbot wrote:Incidentally, since this is the chit-chat forums, have you been following the Jennifer Hepler debacle in computer game country? All the ire of very self-entitled Bioware fans appears to have been directed at one female writer for 'ruining' their franchises, and when she made a very witty retort on Twitter, she was absolutely crucified, to the point where she's now deleted her Twitter account. She's also mocked for being mildly overweight. Naturally, people claimed the unpleasant treatment was because she was a 'bad writer' and 'unprofessional', but it's easy to see the misogyny driving the worst comments.


Ouch.

Reminds me of last year's hoopla when Dragon Age 2 came out; there was a long rant by a, like you say, self-entitled, gamer who complained that the very possibility of a gay option in the game made him uncomfortable. His contention was that, because the majority of gamers are heterosexual males, all games should be directed at them, and to hell with anyone else.

Ended with the game's head writer, as I recall, stepping in to rebut his ridiculousness.

Edit: Ah, here we go:
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/6661775&lf=8

On comics, it definitely IS a bit better than it used to be, but that's not saying much; the issue, as with so many aspects of the industry, seemed to reach a nadir in the nineties II don't know about the rest of you, but I blame Liefeld :D ). And some companies are better than others; the Big Two's superhero books are pretty bad for it (with notable exceptions), although Vertigo is usually a shining example of the opposite. IDW is usually one of the good ones, with a pretty diverse portfolio; ditto Dark Horse. Image is still bad in places, but not anywhere near as bad as it used to be... you get the idea.
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Postby Urzu Six » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:00 pm

Read the link, and I really want to play that game now.
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Postby Sprite » Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:44 am

Something I found in an article and wanted to quote, as it pretty much sums up how I feel about female superhero costumes too:

As long as people can get annoyed that a woman has covered herself up we can see that sexism and misogynistic entitlement are alive and well. Sadly for Power Girl, she exists in a culture where women are routinely sexually objectified and hyper-sexualised. One of my arguments is that with greater diversity in our women characters in superhero comics, such outfits would be far more palatable. If we had women characters in all shapes and sizes, all styles of costume, all manner of presentation, it would be grand to have some women in what is currently the stereotypical superwoman outfit.


Actually the Power Girl issue is a bit of a hot item now as DC changed her costume. And is it a bit odd that I am actually a little disappointed at the loss of the boob window? Because it was such an iconic look for the character, and as the above quote said, if it was an outfit within a wider range of outfits, it wouldn't be a problem either. Also what I really like about Power Girl (insasmuch as I know the character) is that she is not afraid to call people out on sexist bullshit. And she's very much aware of how people look at her. One thing that peeves me about most hyper-sexually drawn superheroines is that they seem completely oblivious to it all.

Likewise I don't care if Wonder Woman walks around without pants but I'd like characters like Rogue to zip up. Wonder Woman's look is very iconic, while Rogue's cleavage is... out of character, really. She always took such care to cover up completely.

Also I've read an issue of the new Wonder Woman series and while she shows quite a bit of skin, it doesn't come off as sexualised at all. Which just goes to show how much art skill and poses matter. It's not all about nudity.

Although...

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Postby Focksbot » Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:11 pm

Nudity is, of course, a total red herring. The fact that bare breasts are still considered something of an obscenity and only make it into comics with warnings on them is just the other side of the coin to the back-breaking/women-in-fridges/Smurfette business.

In comics like Fables and Urasawa's 21st Century Boys, you see boobs. But no one (at least to my knowledge) picks it up for the boobs. The boobs aren't there because the writer or artist has engineered an improbably or convenient situation to show them to you. They're there simply because, in the natural course of the story, the female character would be naked at that point and the creators have seen no purpose in contriving to cover up their nipples. It's an absurdity that this is seen as "Warning! Adult content" territory, while there's no such problem with comics where women are constantly posed in sexually suggestive ways, simply because you can't see any nipples or pubes. Surely even the nuttiest fanboys can't explain that one.
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Postby Sprite » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:00 am

Oh yes. Some of my favourites, the best comics I know, comics that are renowned for their portrayal of female characters, have quite a bit of nudity in them. But it's always done tastefully, it always makes sense within the story, it never comes across as vulgar and it's so, so beautiful (so let's hope this also debunks the argument that women have a problem with sexy characters because they're insecure about their own looks. I mean, please!)

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By the way, coincidentally I found some more really nice articles that show just how ridiculous the whole portrayal of women in comics is. Huge thanks to former Transformers-writer Shane McCarthy for linking to them on Facebook!

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.co ... ide-lives/

http://justsayins.tumblr.com/post/14957 ... ll-you-why
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Postby Cyberstrike » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:27 pm

Urzu Six wrote:Read the link, and I really want to play that game now.


Dragon Age II is a good game, not a great game by any means, but a good game.

temple wrote:
Focksbot wrote:Incidentally, since this is the chit-chat forums, have you been following the Jennifer Hepler debacle in computer game country? All the ire of very self-entitled Bioware fans appears to have been directed at one female writer for 'ruining' their franchises, and when she made a very witty retort on Twitter, she was absolutely crucified, to the point where she's now deleted her Twitter account. She's also mocked for being mildly overweight. Naturally, people claimed the unpleasant treatment was because she was a 'bad writer' and 'unprofessional', but it's easy to see the misogyny driving the worst comments.


Ouch.

Reminds me of last year's hoopla when Dragon Age 2 came out; there was a long rant by a, like you say, self-entitled, gamer who complained that the very possibility of a gay option in the game made him uncomfortable. His contention was that, because the majority of gamers are heterosexual males, all games should be directed at them, and to hell with anyone else.

Ended with the game's head writer, as I recall, stepping in to rebut his ridiculousness.

Edit: Ah, here we go:
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/6661775&lf=8

On comics, it definitely IS a bit better than it used to be, but that's not saying much; the issue, as with so many aspects of the industry, seemed to reach a nadir in the nineties II don't know about the rest of you, but I blame Liefeld :D ). And some companies are better than others; the Big Two's superhero books are pretty bad for it (with notable exceptions), although Vertigo is usually a shining example of the opposite. IDW is usually one of the good ones, with a pretty diverse portfolio; ditto Dark Horse. Image is still bad in places, but not anywhere near as bad as it used to be... you get the idea.


The irony of that link is that Dragon Age II isn't the first Bioware game to have gay or more actually bisexual characters in it.

Jade Empire had two bisexual characters.

Dragon Age: Origins had at 2 love interests that were both openly bisexual and quite a few flings that were also bisexual.

Mass Effect 1 had Liara who I guess is a bisexual character.

Mass Effect 2 had Kelly Chambers and Liara who were both bi-sexual characters.

Mass Effect 3 is supposed to have about 3 bisexual characters in it (Liara, Ash, and Kaiden) and two new characters, James Vega, and Diana Allers are supposed to be bisexual. There are also rumors that all the love interests from both of the previous games are now bisexaul.

And Lionhead Studios had in Fable 1 and Fable II had same sex marriage and in Fable III even had same-sex adoption of children.

Bethesda had same sex marriage in The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim.

Gamers are some of the most self-entitled ************ on the net.
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Postby Sprite » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:17 am

I do find it funny that the video game industry (arguably even more male-dominated than the comics industry) actually seems to have no qualms about offering those same-sex romance options. Makes me wonder if videogames are actually easier to get into for girls (the rant-poster in the aforementioned thread would like to presume that the gay option is just there for gay men, but take my word for it - a lot of girls like it as well. I know I had a lot of fun with Zevran and my (male) character in Dragon Age: Origins, let me tell you!) than comics.

(although, yaoi manga seems really successful too, considering there's whole publishing companies dedicated to publishing just that)
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Postby Cyberstrike » Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:21 pm

Sprite wrote:I do find it funny that the video game industry (arguably even more male-dominated than the comics industry) actually seems to have no qualms about offering those same-sex romance options. Makes me wonder if videogames are actually easier to get into for girls (the rant-poster in the aforementioned thread would like to presume that the gay option is just there for gay men, but take my word for it - a lot of girls like it as well. I know I had a lot of fun with Zevran and my (male) character in Dragon Age: Origins, let me tell you!) than comics.


I played Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2, Fable 2, Fable 3, and Dragon Age: Origins more times as a female character than as a male character (in both Mass Effect games and DA:O I've only got through the games 3 and 1 times as a male characters respectfully). And in both Skyrim and Dragon Age II I've played only as a female character.

Being a member of Bioware Social Network I know MANY people (myself included) there that support same-sex relationships in their games and there are many who do not. I've also met quite a few are self-proclaimed female, gay, and lesbian gamers there as well.

I know that there were a lot of fans that were upset over Ash and Kaiden being rumored to be bisexual in Mass Effect 3 because in the first Mass Effect game they were portrayed as straight (even though there was a mod/hack for the PC version that shows the Female Shepard having dialogue with Ash that leads up to a sex scene that is NOT in the final game) so apparently Bioware meant for them to be bisexual.

Also Mass Effect 1 was praised by many fans for it's portrayal of the female Shepard and Ash for that they were NOT over-sexulized.

There were a LOT criticism for Mass Effect 2 for the characters of Miranda Lawson, Jack, and Samara for all being over-sexulaized. Even though Miranda and Jack do explain their appearance to a certain degree (they just don't explain their outfits).
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Postby Sprite » Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:14 am

Another word on "strong women". Some of my favourite IDW female characters are Verity from Transformers and Kinsey from Locke & Key. But it dawned to me that I like them because of their weaknesses. Well, they're scared and they cry, but they still do what needs to be done. That, I think, is true courage and strength. And it also creates instant character depth, because of a conflict of emotions. It creates better characters. I don't know how writers think "strong" equals just "able to kick ass", because the kind of female characters we get that way often end up pretty one-dimensional. And they usually still get sexed up on top of that, too. :?

Sooo... which characters in comics would y'all consider good female characters and why?
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