All Things Illyria

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Postby Double Dutchess » Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:34 am

dorotea wrote:And yet in Angel 42 Illyria states as a fact to Angel that 'your motives are pure' or something like that. Meaning you imply that not only she has perfect understanding of what is a 'pure motive' - she also thinks it is perfectly suitable for her to issue such judgments


Why do you think her saying this implies "perfect understanding"? People state things they have no perfect understanding of all the time, while thinking it is perfectly suitable for them to issue such judgements. We actually do it all the time on this forum. Speaking for myself, I can see myself making the same statement as Illyria, and I certainly don't pretend to have perfect understanding of what "pure motives" really are (in fact I think nobody does).

and use her newly acquired moral superiority to decide what is good and what is bad - all of the above while still being a soulles character. Does not it sound like a bit of hypocrisy ? She 'changed' - so now she appoints herself a higher authority and it is not even presented as a funny moment ?


I don't think Illyria has acquired "moral superiority". She has just become more human, and humans judge each other all the time. I suppose you could say that anyone who criticizes another person appoints him- or herself as a "higher authority". But then, once again, that's something everybody does all the time. And soulless creatures are very well capable of distinguishing between good and bad, they do know the difference. Whether they care is another matter, of course. But the way I see it, what Illyria has gained is exactly the ability to care. We've seen soulless creatures with this ability before, so it's not a stretch to me.

For Illyria to suddenly become associating herself with humanity is strange.


Since Illyria has gained the capacity to feel human emotions, I think it would be stranger if in spite of that, she still did not associate herself with humanity. Actually it seems to be more general: she associates herself with the world at large (including plants, trees, the earth, "cephalodogs", everything), not humanity specifically. At least that's what I took away from issue 4.

(typo fixed)
Last edited by Double Dutchess on Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Mariah » Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:50 pm

Hi Dorotea.

Do seals view sharks as "evil"? Do they really have a concept of "evil"? Or is it just part of their cycle? I don't personally know if seals make moral judgments like that. They may. They may not. Maybe seals believe being eaten by a shark is the way to their form of afterlife. We assume they must view their predators as "bad" because they bring death...but maybe seals view death the way the Tibetans do. As something inevitable and positive. In any case, our perception and a seals perception of a shark are quite different. Even if we exchanged souls, our frame of reference would be so alien I'm not sure we could process it.

As for Illyria acting superior...that's kind of a big part of her character. True, she's doing it in a slightly different way now...but that's still classic Illyria. Barreling through, making judgments, dictating what should be done. To me, her statement IS funny...in a darkly ironic sense. Whether readers find humor in it in context is up to them. Angel gets pretty sarcastic during that scene himself.

As for her associating herself with humanity...does she? Understanding herself and her relationship to humanity isn't the same as necessarily associating herself -with- them. She's still alien. She is still emphatically not human. But I don't believe that precludes her from understanding something -about- humanity that she didn't before. Or making choices based on that understanding. That has been, to my mind, what her character has been struggling with since her resurrection. What do these memories mean to her? What is her place in this world? What does she -want- to be? And she makes a choice. That's what we explored.

But I don't really want to tell you how to view or feel about the story. I respect that it clearly didn't work for you. We knew going in that people might have strong reactions. But one of the things I love about this fandom is how thoughtful it is, and even when something doesn't gel for them, they can have great conversations about it. :}
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Postby Moscow Watcher » Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:53 pm

I finally read all four issues in one gulp, and... wow, the story is amazing and the art is gorgeous.

The most intriguing aspect (to me) is that the arc departs a bit from Joss Whedon's strict antropocentricity. Illyria's changes are more directed toward The Nature, than toward The Man. She finds the connection with plants and trees, and, judging by the new color of her eyes, the new connection influences her inner state a lot. Eyes are the mirror of soul.

Except she doesn't have one, as it was mentioned here. But is the soul necessary?

I love the subtlety of the the parallel of (apparently unsouled) Ksartha sacrificing herself for Illyria and Illyria's newly-found ability to feel for this new world - and for humanity. Our pets - dogs, cats - they hardly have souls in the Christian sense, but they are able to love, to help, to protect. Illyria may not have a soul, but she feels connection to those pesky humans and souled half-breeds, and she wants to help and protect them.

The Avatar-esque twist of Illyria defeating the monster with the help of Mother Nature works great because it's rooted in the scenes from the show, when Illyria talks to the plants at W&H. Nice continuity.
Another great, inspired idea - Illyria turning her enemy into its own embryo. She doesn't kill - she restarts the cycle of life.

Illyria's final conversation with Spike is bittersweet. He exits into the city, the civilization. She goes to the beach, to the nature. She is a force of nature, literally. A bit domesticated, but still.

Looks like Illyria's journey is only starting. After reading the arc I'm sure that Joss will use Illyria in season 9. Maybe even in both titles.

Enormous thanks to Mariah Huehner, Scott Tipton and Elena Casagrande for a wonderful story.
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Postby Veiriti » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:11 am

I’ve received my Illyria 4 in Friday last week, but recently I’m too busy, so I have no time to comment it. Actually I can’t add much – I think Moscow Watcher and DD already said everything that I would say. I totally LOVED these series. For me Illyria’s story was the BEST story after ATF!!! The story was so touchable, so deep and Illyria’s development is the best development of the character that I’ve ever seen since Spike’s development in the actual TV show and I’m really surprised that there still are some fans who have negative thoughts/opinions about it…
Anyway, I HOPE Joss Whedon and Scott Allie won’t ignore that brilliant Illyria’s grown in the future comics series. And I had no intention to buy the current Angel’s series, but I will, because of Illyria.
I don’t want to repeat MW’s words, but thank you Mariah Huehner, Scott Tipton and Elena Casagrande for that wonderful story. You’ve really touched my heart! :D
Actually I have got one question to Mariah – I’ve expected to see and the little Sally in the end – what happened with her and who won the poker game? :wink:
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Postby Spacediva70 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:53 pm

Veiriti wrote:Actually I have got one question to Mariah – I’ve expected to see and the little Sally in the end – what happened with her and who won the poker game? :wink:


I didn't see Spike with any kittens so I'm guessing Sally won.
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Postby Mariah » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:14 pm

Veiriti wrote:I’ve received my Illyria 4 in Friday last week, but recently I’m too busy, so I have no time to comment it. Actually I can’t add much – I think Moscow Watcher and DD already said everything that I would say. I totally LOVED these series. For me Illyria’s story was the BEST story after ATF!!! The story was so touchable, so deep and Illyria’s development is the best development of the character that I’ve ever seen since Spike’s development in the actual TV show and I’m really surprised that there still are some fans who have negative thoughts/opinions about it…
Anyway, I HOPE Joss Whedon and Scott Allie won’t ignore that brilliant Illyria’s grown in the future comics series. And I had no intention to buy the current Angel’s series, but I will, because of Illyria.
I don’t want to repeat MW’s words, but thank you Mariah Huehner, Scott Tipton and Elena Casagrande for that wonderful story. You’ve really touched my heart! :D
Actually I have got one question to Mariah – I’ve expected to see and the little Sally in the end – what happened with her and who won the poker game? :wink:


Sally definitely won. She's an ace Kitten Poker player. :}

I loved that little character. Typically demons are either scary, crusty, or gross...so it was nice to have one that was so ridiculously cute.

I have a whole lot of The Adventures of Sally the Frellian Demon in my head...or at least paper dolls of her. Something tells me she'd have a kick-ass closet.
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Postby Veiriti » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:46 am

Mariah wrote:
Veiriti wrote:I’ve received my Illyria 4 in Friday last week, but recently I’m too busy, so I have no time to comment it. Actually I can’t add much – I think Moscow Watcher and DD already said everything that I would say. I totally LOVED these series. For me Illyria’s story was the BEST story after ATF!!! The story was so touchable, so deep and Illyria’s development is the best development of the character that I’ve ever seen since Spike’s development in the actual TV show and I’m really surprised that there still are some fans who have negative thoughts/opinions about it…
Anyway, I HOPE Joss Whedon and Scott Allie won’t ignore that brilliant Illyria’s grown in the future comics series. And I had no intention to buy the current Angel’s series, but I will, because of Illyria.
I don’t want to repeat MW’s words, but thank you Mariah Huehner, Scott Tipton and Elena Casagrande for that wonderful story. You’ve really touched my heart! :D
Actually I have got one question to Mariah – I’ve expected to see and the little Sally in the end – what happened with her and who won the poker game? :wink:


Sally definitely won. She's an ace Kitten Poker player. :}

I loved that little character. Typically demons are either scary, crusty, or gross...so it was nice to have one that was so ridiculously cute.

I have a whole lot of The Adventures of Sally the Frellian Demon in my head...or at least paper dolls of her. Something tells me she'd have a kick-ass closet.


Thanks for the answer, Mariah! You always are nice with us, even when we aren’t nice with you! :D
Hee, I knew that Sally won!!! That’s why she is missing - she probably is counting her Kitten-earnings right now. :lol:
And "The Adventures of Sally the Frellian Demon" sounds interesting, she is so damn cute, but dangerous in the same time :) :wink:
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Postby nmcil12 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:40 pm

Moscow Watcher wrote:I finally read all four issues in one gulp, and... wow, the story is amazing and the art is gorgeous.

The most intriguing aspect (to me) is that the arc departs a bit from Joss Whedon's strict antropocentricity. Illyria's changes are more directed toward The Nature, than toward The Man. She finds the connection with plants and trees, and, judging by the new color of her eyes, the new connection influences her inner state a lot. Eyes are the mirror of soul.

Except she doesn't have one, as it was mentioned here. But is the soul necessary?

I love the subtlety of the the parallel of (apparently unsouled) Ksartha sacrificing herself for Illyria and Illyria's newly-found ability to feel for this new world - and for humanity. Our pets - dogs, cats - they hardly have souls in the Christian sense, but they are able to love, to help, to protect. Illyria may not have a soul, but she feels connection to those pesky humans and souled half-breeds, and she wants to help and protect them.

The Avatar-esque twist of Illyria defeating the monster with the help of Mother Nature works great because it's rooted in the scenes from the show, when Illyria talks to the plants at W&H. Nice continuity.
Another great, inspired idea - Illyria turning her enemy into its own embryo. She doesn't kill - she restarts the cycle of life.

Illyria's final conversation with Spike is bittersweet. He exits into the city, the civilization. She goes to the beach, to the nature. She is a force of nature, literally. A bit domesticated, but still.

Looks like Illyria's journey is only starting. After reading the arc I'm sure that Joss will use Illyria in season 9. Maybe even in both titles.

Enormous thanks to Mariah Huehner, Scott Tipton and Elena Casagrande for a wonderful story.


Outstanding comment on Illyria and her change and her reconnection with the forces on nature, both to this planet but with her expansion once again to other times and dimensions. I love your "she doesn't kill - she restarts the cycle of life." It's perfect for the integration of Fred, nature, time, dimension, the power of love and sacrifice as shown by her new companions and Illyria God Force of her old world and this new Illyria God Force of this time.

Illyria has always been such an interesting character and the potential to explore humans through the eyes and mind of Illyria is one that I have always wanted. The Illyria that this series has presented I think is a great development for both the character and for the future of the Buffyverse and Angelverse.

Of the three series that IDW have ended their time with Angel I like this one the best - I love how it touched both the past with Fred and the future of Illyria.
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Postby DanielW » Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:12 pm

Illyria as Protector in the place of Angel (or Twilight as he's predestined to become)? Interesting. We've not heard what fate DH has for her, and the insanely hopeful part of me wishes that IDW has managed to keep her in a "spun-off and not counted as 'canon' (whatever that is) series" (something akin to Faction Paradox or Kaldor City in relation to Doctor Who, both of which started in Who, but their original creators took them in different directions shorn of their connection to Who).
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Postby Moscow Watcher » Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:38 pm

nmcil12 wrote:It's perfect for the integration of Fred, nature, time, dimension, the power of love and sacrifice as shown by her new companions and Illyria God Force of her old world and this new Illyria God Force of this time.



Agree. And, given that magic is gone from earth dimension, Joss has to find other ways to bring havoc on Scoobies - as well as use other powerful entities to maintain the balance between good and evil.

Recently I was rewatching "Orpheus" and I notices wonderful chemistry between Alyson Hannigan and Amy Acker. Now I wonder if Joss could pair Illyria and Willow. Willow/Saga Vasuki panels were quite daring, but if sex with Willow could awaken Illyria's inner squid, that could be... well... even more daring. :)

On a more serious note, I'd love to see Illyria as a protagonist in a mini or even in a series. If wishes were horses...
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Postby Scott Tipton » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:18 am

Recently I was rewatching "Orpheus" and I notices wonderful chemistry between Alyson Hannigan and Amy Acker.


From the "What Might Have Been" Department:

If you've read a couple interviews I've done here or there, you may have read that Elena Casagrande and I were going to follow up our "Hole in the World" mini with an adaptation of "Orpheus" that wound up not happening for reasons too dull to get into here.

Anyway, since we had a little more room to play in that one compared to "Hole," we were going to get to add a few new scenes, and one of the things Elena and I were looking forward to most was playing with that Willow/Fred dynamic. We had the scenes plotted out and everything, and I think the first one even made it all the way to script.

Sigh...
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Postby dorotea » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:53 am

DanielW wrote:Illyria as Protector in the place of Angel


Is probably the most illogical soap-operatic turn of events I can envision. A soulless Hellgod who ate a magic mushroom and turned 'good' and sentimental and now is a protector of the realm, because memories of Fred are a good enough replacement of a soul, and because 'the best' redemption stories are the quicky ones where the redeemed entity is redeemed by a turn of a switch God-out-of- the- machine style.

I definitely hope we will not see the new and improved Illyria in DH canon - or if we do she will be regressed to her normal chaotic unsure self. Her running around all blue uberpowerful and good , smelling of flowers and dallying with Willow... gulp.
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Postby pshand05 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:46 am

dorotea wrote:
Is probably the most illogical soap-operatic turn of events I can envision. A soulless Hellgod who ate a magic mushroom and turned 'good' and sentimental and now is a protector of the realm, because memories of Fred are a good enough replacement of a soul, and because 'the best' redemption stories are the quicky ones where the redeemed entity is redeemed by a turn of a switch God-out-of- the- machine style.

I definitely hope we will not see the new and improved Illyria in DH canon - or if we do she will be regressed to her normal chaotic unsure self. Her running around all blue uberpowerful and good , smelling of flowers and dallying with Willow... gulp.


The progression wasn't "quicky" or a deus ex machina. The stone triggered something important, yes, but Illyria's progression from a "soulless Hellgod" started in "Shells." In fact, I think she came farther than any other character did in the entirety of Angel during the TV series... and how many episodes did she actually feature in? If Scott and Mariah just stopped her progression, it a) wouldn't have been true to the TV series and b) wouldn't have been a story worth telling. Thankfully, instead of doing that, we got Illyria: Haunted.
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Postby dorotea » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:01 am

pshand05 wrote: In fact, I think she came farther than any other character did in the entirety of Angel during the TV series... and how many episodes did she actually feature in?


And this is exactly my problem with Illyria - her transformation even in tv series was too quick, but at least it stopped where it was plausible - de-powered god-entity forced into a human shell and affected by all around her and haunted by her memories. This is where Whedon stopped with her - and she was perfectly tortured and interesting. In her mini series Illyria's transformation was reversal of what happened in tv series - she got her powers back - which in Whedon verse usually followed by a Monkey paw effect. But in case with Illyria instead of repercussions we have got complete goody-two-shoes transformation triggered by a magic stone. See, I can accept that depowering and emotional impact would cause changes even in a hellgod - I cannot get how getting the powers back would have positive effect on something still so alien as Illyria.

And having her replace Angel as Protector ... (that was the key of the suggestions posted in this thread up above) well, I certainly can see why many would want something like this to happen - and why they would be rooting for this. I suppose Mariah and Scott did not expect this kind of a reaction - but I saw this coming right after I read issue 42 - with Illyria showing her morally superior side to the world.
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Postby pshand05 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:12 am

Whedon didn't stop her progression. The best example of her progression in the TV series is "Not Fade Away" and that's was the last episode. He was pushing her forward until the very end of the show, and the only reason it stopped was because the story stopped.
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