All Things Illyria

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Postby Veiriti » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:17 am

Spacediva70 wrote:
fluff wrote:When you say that she and Spike have a tender moment, what exactly do you mean? Because the part of me that thinks they make a nice pair is thinking kissing.


*Spoilers again*


No kissing but for those of us who do think they would make a nice pair there is a moment that can be interpreted as a hint of romance. I think this is one of the things though that is left up to the reader as Mariah had stated. The exchange between the two indicates that Illyria now cares for Spike. Illyria did tell Angel that she cared about him in the last issue of Angel as well so it could be comparable to that also and seen as more of a friendship. I'm personally all about the Spillyria:)

Wow, all these spoilers sound great! Thank you! :D I can't wait for my copy :) I think the Illyria's arc is the most interesting and touchable arc of IDW Angelverse.
And I'm a Spuffy shipper, but I would love to see Spike and Illyria together in a romantic sense ;)
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Spike - "Love like that makes you stronger than anything... you CAN SAVE THE WORLD WITH A LOVE LIKE THAT."
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Postby Double Dutchess » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:35 am

I thought this was a very nice ending to a wonderful mini-series. I am glad that Illyria has become more than she was, and that she no longer is just "the ending" of Fred but now also a continuation of her, in a way.

Mariah, thanks for the clarifying remarks. I didn't get the Pancakes reference at all; I like the name much better now.

Spacediva70 wrote:No kissing but for those of us who do think they would make a nice pair there is a moment that can be interpreted as a hint of romance. I think this is one of the things though that is left up to the reader as Mariah had stated. The exchange between the two indicates that Illyria now cares for Spike. Illyria did tell Angel that she cared about him in the last issue of Angel as well so it could be comparable to that also and seen as more of a friendship. I'm personally all about the Spillyria:)


Spillyria is not bad at all. I'm actually thinking about another new icon based on that moment. But maybe I should wait a bit with that, to avoid spoiling the poor people who don't have the issue yet.
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Postby Mariah » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:32 pm

Double Dutchess wrote:I thought this was a very nice ending to a wonderful mini-series. I am glad that Illyria has become more than she was, and that she no longer is just "the ending" of Fred but now also a continuation of her, in a way.

Mariah, thanks for the clarifying remarks. I didn't get the Pancakes reference at all; I like the name much better now.


For some reason that particular quote, the "Daddy, I love you like pancakes but I'm getting the hell out of here..." just stuck with me. Maybe because I really do love pancakes. Or maybe because it kind of perfectly encapsulates Fred's character in certain ways.

It's actually a two-fold reference. One is what Illyria says to the cephalodog, which mirrors her conversation with Wesley in Season 5 where she says something along the lines of "Things have names. This is important to you." because she keeps referring to Fred as the "shell". And then the cephalodog picking the name "pancakes", which due to the psychic connection, is her picking a piece of memory from Illyria/Fred. Which brings us back to that theme.

Of course...it might be because I also name pets after food. My newest cat's name is Waffles. :}
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Postby DanielW » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:01 pm

Anyone else notice that her eyes aren't completely blue anymore?
When she channelled the plant power, they went green, and now they're sort of green-y blue, almost as if her iris colour is green while the rest of her eye is blue. That's a nice touch to show that she's evolving again as a person, rather then forcing herself into Fred's body, but becoming more a part of it.
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Postby fluff » Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:47 am

DanielW wrote:Anyone else notice that her eyes aren't completely blue anymore?
When she channelled the plant power, they went green, and now they're sort of green-y blue, almost as if her iris colour is green while the rest of her eye is blue. That's a nice touch to show that she's evolving again as a person, rather then forcing herself into Fred's body, but becoming more a part of it.


I love how Illyria's eyes look on the cover, both human and not human at the same time.

Is it explained in the issue why she has a scent which Angel can pick up now? I'm guessing it's because she's more of a person now than she was before but, why jasmine? I can't remember of the top of my head if Fred had a special liking for jasmines, which might have influenced this aspect of Illyria. Or is it a reference to how Fred played such a great part in ending Jasmine's thrall over the people of Earth?
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Postby Shade of Pale » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:12 am

The final issue didn't disappoint at all. I've found this series touching, thoughtful and all in all, a nice tribute to Fred. Illyria's evolution seemed organic and very believable. Loved the Cephalapods ! Thanks, Mariah, Scott and Elena for all your wonderful work.
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Postby fluff » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:19 pm

I got my copy, yay! <3

Thoughts: I was in tears when the octopus sacrificed itself for Illyria and I read her thoughts to its death and the last page was a definite tearjerker. In my world, that translates to the fact that it was a great issue and that I loved it very much.

The change in Illyria's eye color was a very nice touch and her power to manipulate plants is a very interesting one as well. It makes me wonder if she will use it in Angel, to help him, or if she will, perhaps, reverse the whole future and toss Angel back to the normal timeline, like she reversed the Old One to an embryo state.

Illyria's tender moment with Spike was amazing. Their pose in one of the panels reminded me of Fr-Illyria's pose in one of the panels in that dream she had in issue one (I was to lazy to dig out the issue and check if I was right though).

Overall, my expectations for this mini-series were met: it was great and I love the turn which the character took. Seeing the world through Illyria's eyes, so to say, was a very interesting experience. What with her expression being so blank all the time, it always left you wondering what she thought of the world and of the things she did. The dialogues and monologues were very well written and I find myself that, of all the Angel comics I read so far, I simply adore the way in which Elena Casagrande draws Illyria.

I'm looking forward for the TPB to come out, it would be nice having all the issues in one volume. It would be interesting if this mini-series were to be collected together with A Hole in the World, to emphasize how she evolved. Thanks for a wonderful mini-series, guys ^^
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Postby Double Dutchess » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:25 pm

Completely agreed with all of the above ^ Let me add my thanks to the whole team who gave us this great mini-series.

And, were you thinking of these panels, fluff?

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There's another pair of panels that are also pretty similar, the ones where they are smiling at each other. Overall, there are some nice parallels between the two scenes.
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Postby Buffyversefantic » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:40 pm

I should have my copy hopfully and finally tomorrow. :)
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Postby fluff » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:23 pm

Double Dutchess wrote:Completely agreed with all of the above ^ Let me add my thanks to the whole team who gave us this great mini-series.

And, were you thinking of these panels, fluff?

Image

Image

There's another pair of panels that are also pretty similar, the ones where they are smiling at each other. Overall, there are some nice parallels between the two scenes.


Yes, those are the two panels I had in mind ^^ it's a nice touch to show that Illyria's movements are more like Fred's, as opposed to the way in which she carried herself at the beginning, as if it were strange to her to be in that body.
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Postby dorotea » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:36 am

Ok, trying to stay away with negativity here - but can somebody reason exactly 'how' it is possible for Illyria to change in this fundamental way if she does not have a soul? And she does not - at least as far as I recall from Willingham arc Illyria is the one who holds the soul-eater down while they drown her in the bath with acid+. And what exactly happened to Fred's soul? Where did it go? I cannot get my hands on issue 4 - apparently my comic shop forgot to order it. But whats your general impression of 'how' this was explained?
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Postby Double Dutchess » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:04 am

The exact "how" and "what" of Illyria's change are left open in the comic; as far as I can see the possibility that she has somehow retained or incorporated (a piece of) Fred's soul is not entirely ruled out. But I think the more likely explanation is that somehow Fred's memories have become an integral part of her. I don't really see why her being soulless poses a problem for her development though.
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Postby Buffyversefantic » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:08 pm

My comic shop still haven't gotten their copies of Illyria #4. :(
They've promised they'll get me a copy though but I'll probably have it after Spike #6 comes out next week.
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Postby Mariah » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:16 pm

dorotea wrote:Ok, trying to stay away with negativity here - but can somebody reason exactly 'how' it is possible for Illyria to change in this fundamental way if she does not have a soul? And she does not - at least as far as I recall from Willingham arc Illyria is the one who holds the soul-eater down while they drown her in the bath with acid+. And what exactly happened to Fred's soul? Where did it go? I cannot get my hands on issue 4 - apparently my comic shop forgot to order it. But whats your general impression of 'how' this was explained?


Just to re-state: We don't explain what happened to Fred's soul or where it went. That was explained in the show and a bit in ATF, so when/unless Joss chooses to do anything more with it, it's up to him. People may choose to interpret this arc with that in mind, or not.

What souls do or do not contribute to how a person or, in this case, "god", may change is something I think the Whedonverse constantly explores. Soulless characters have done good things. Souled characters have done terrible things. No one's motivations are entirely pure, no one is entirely without redemptive qualities.

The "soul' is such an interesting human concept, so complex and strange...we couldn't possibly explore it all in 4 issues or 40. Our main concern was Illyria's progression based on her history, herself, and the memories she shares. Anything else is up to the reader to interpret how they like. :}
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Postby dorotea » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:35 pm

Mariah wrote:
Just to re-state: We don't explain what happened to Fred's soul or where it went. That was explained in the show and a bit in ATF, so when/unless Joss chooses to do anything more with it, it's up to him. People may choose to interpret this arc with that in mind, or not.

What souls do or do not contribute to how a person or, in this case, "god", may change is something I think the Whedonverse constantly explores. Soulless characters have done good things. Souled characters have done terrible things. No one's motivations are entirely pure, no one is entirely without redemptive qualities.


And yet in Angel 42 Illyria states as a fact to Angel that 'your motives are pure' or something like that. Meaning you imply that not only she has perfect understanding of what is a 'pure motive' - she also thinks it is perfectly suitable for her to issue such judgments and use her newly acquired moral superiority to decide what is good and what is bad - all of the above while still being a soulles character. Does not it sound like a bit of hypocrisy ? She 'changed' - so now she appoints herself a higher authority and it is not even presented as a funny moment ?

The "soul' is such an interesting human concept, so complex and strange...we couldn't possibly explore it all in 4 issues or 40. Our main concern was Illyria's progression based on her history, herself, and the memories she shares. Anything else is up to the reader to interpret how they like. :}



I think the notion of human soul in the verse is quite clear actually. Having a soul only means being able to associate with humanity as your basic big family, that's all. Like I already mentioned in that example with sharks and seals - a human observing the two species does not deem the sharks evil. They are natural predators - they eat to survive. The seal , on other hand, would naturally see sharks as evil monsters - they eat her kin. If human were to acquire seal's soul they would see sharks as evil too. Of course, being able to associate does not imply one would - here more complex things kick into play - like personal inner morality etc.

For Illyria to suddenly become associating herself with humanity is strange.
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