IDW Folks: about buffy continuity...

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IDW Folks: about buffy continuity...

Postby JSPoole » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:59 am

One thing that baffles me is: why is IDW so keenly trying to tie it's books neatly into dark horse's cannon? One thing I always liked is that it treated angel as it should be- stand alone, with the odd reference. Now it seems IDW is bending over backwards to help out dark horse and make it part of their official cannon- but I dont understand why?

I dont understand how politics in comics work, I dont pretend to- I can only tell you my gut feelings as a fan of IDW's stellar work on the series, and Dark Horse's mediocre to bad run on Buffy. Im not bashing dark horse- I dislike the buffy comic but they do a lot of other good stuff, such as hellboy and aliens.

However- I really think dark horse has treated idw very much like a junior partner here- these two ''leaked'' announcements very much seem, to my cynical mind, as a chance for dark horse to undermine IDW's work, almost as if to say ''hey this is the REAL cannon, twighlight - so suck it angel fans lulz xoxo '' (Im paraphrasing here :P)

I dont know if maybe IDW's keeping quiet about their true feelings about it for politics or as to not offend someone- but you guys have done such amazing work, not one of us fans would blame you for being upset and vocally so.

Ok so his run on angel was somewhat divisive (my official opinion is it was still a solid story though) but I respect bill willingham for being so open and honest about the situation and for making it HIS own story regardless of the twighlight changes- the fans arent silly, we know that there's more to this than just a license changing hands here. Those two announcements are HUGE, especially when one totally does it without concent. It's disrespectful to you guys, and us - the company and the readers have honestly been in this together, so I feel like it's an insult to us, the readers, as well.

I just really think it's being handled poorly by dark horse, and while I somewhat admire the stoic response by IDW, not giving any indication- I and many others arent happy about this, so I cant imagine you guys are happy about it either, no matter if you have to put a nice face on it.

I just want to know- why try so hard to fit this series , and spike's into angel continuity? I Bet a large part of the angel readership of idw's series wouldnt want that- and I am also sure a large part wont even make the move to dark horse. why not just say ''the license isnt yours yet- we are telling our final stories the way WE want to''.

I love what you have done with angel idw- there will be no more angel for me after it ends. I just wish you would take a firmer stance with dark horse and not try to tie everything in with their increasingly poor buffy stories.
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Postby sulfur » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:03 am

The better it ties into the continuity when it moves over to Dark Horse next year, the better chance of Dark Horse continuing the story and character development rather than starting anew.
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Postby JSPoole » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:07 am

lol you think dark horse are going to continue on angel's current continuity?

the same dark horse that made angel an uber villain who's STILL obsessed with buffy, despite being a good guy in his own series who, while still loving buffy, has moved on?

I dunno about you, but that doesnt seem likely to me.

I could be wrong and eating my words- but so far,t he way angel has been used in buffy...it says it all.
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Postby Allycat » Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:35 am

From the Dark Horse face book page: http://www.facebook.com/#!/posted.php?i ... comments=1#s138136499560786


The creative team for Dark Horse's 'Angel' series has not yet been announced. IDW's run on the character is not considered 'cannon' like Buffy Season 8 is, because Joss Whedon didn't have direct involvement with the stories. Buffy Season 8 ...is meant to be an extension of the television show, so everything that happens in Season 8 is part of the original continuity. Once we bring back 'Angel', Dark Horse will start to unveil plans as to how we'll bring all the characters together for Buffy Season 9, again with direct input from Joss Whedon.

Like the earlier Buffy material we published, readers should enjoy IDW's 'Angel' series, but when looking to fit a Joss-approved timeline to the characters, Buffy Season 8 is the only true continuation of the television series.


It just boils my blood to see how arrogant they are. I get that this may not be the view of the entire company, but just some severely undertalented person in their PR department (they seem to have a lot of those)... but still.

Is this the same person who tweeted about "cannon" [sic] to me before?
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Postby sueworld » Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:08 pm

I really, realy dislike this company. As you say their behaviour over this is appauling, and the fact they seem to have made this kind of a 'habit' infurates me even more.
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Postby sulfur » Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:24 pm

Allycat wrote:Is this the same person who tweeted about "cannon" [sic] to me before?

Likely. I find it amusing the backpedaling they've started doing, especially since they talked about how Angel: After the Fall (1-17 I think) was considered canon, since Joss worked on that segment, but that the followup stuff was not (at this time) considered canon.
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Postby bitsyfest » Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:29 pm

sulfur wrote:
Allycat wrote:Is this the same person who tweeted about "cannon" [sic] to me before?

Likely. I find it amusing the backpedaling they've started doing, especially since they talked about how Angel: After the Fall (1-17 I think) was considered canon, since Joss worked on that segment, but that the followup stuff was not (at this time) considered canon.


I guess it's all a bit "history is written by the victors". What can you do? If you like the Angel series, keep on reading it. It's unfortunate how this has been handled, to be sure, but, either way, there's more IDW Angel comics to come for a while yet. Angel stuff at Dark Horse? That's future fandom's problem. Could be great, could be awful. It's a mystery.
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Postby sueworld » Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:50 pm

sulfur wrote:
Allycat wrote:Is this the same person who tweeted about "cannon" [sic] to me before?

Likely. I find it amusing the backpedaling they've started doing, especially since they talked about how Angel: After the Fall (1-17 I think) was considered canon, since Joss worked on that segment, but that the followup stuff was not (at this time) considered canon.


Yeah, that made me laugh as well.
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Postby Ryall » Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:55 pm

Allycat wrote:From the Dark Horse face book page: http://www.facebook.com/#!/posted.php?i ... comments=1#s138136499560786


The creative team for Dark Horse's 'Angel' series has not yet been announced. IDW's run on the character is not considered 'cannon' like Buffy Season 8 is, because Joss Whedon didn't have direct involvement with the stories. Buffy Season 8 ...is meant to be an extension of the television show, so everything that happens in Season 8 is part of the original continuity. Once we bring back 'Angel', Dark Horse will start to unveil plans as to how we'll bring all the characters together for Buffy Season 9, again with direct input from Joss Whedon.

Like the earlier Buffy material we published, readers should enjoy IDW's 'Angel' series, but when looking to fit a Joss-approved timeline to the characters, Buffy Season 8 is the only true continuation of the television series.


It just boils my blood to see how arrogant they are. I get that this may not be the view of the entire company, but just some severely undertalented person in their PR department (they seem to have a lot of those)... but still.

Is this the same person who tweeted about "cannon" [sic] to me before?


Well, look at it this way: Joss Whedon wanted to use Betta George in Angel: After the Fall. George was introduced in Spike: Asylum and appeared in Spike: Shadow Puppets and issues after After the Fall ended. Joss Whedon ended the "canon" argument right there. I trust Joss Whedon a lot more than I trust some intern who can't spell "canon" right. Nothing else needs to be said there.

Unless Joss Whedon himself was updating Dark horse's Facebook page and suddenly forgot how to write coherently or spell properly. But that seems like a far-fetched theory to me.
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Re: IDW Folks: about buffy continuity...

Postby Double Dutchess » Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:30 pm

JSPoole wrote:One thing that baffles me is: why is IDW so keenly trying to tie it's books neatly into dark horse's cannon? One thing I always liked is that it treated angel as it should be- stand alone, with the odd reference. Now it seems IDW is bending over backwards to help out dark horse and make it part of their official cannon- but I dont understand why?


In line with Chris' reaction above, I think IDW are probably doing this to help themselves, not DH. The better their Angel comics fit in with DH's canon comics, the higher the chance that fans will retroactively regard them as canon too, the same way many people regard Spike:Asylum as canon simply because Betta George was used in AtF, which is canon. So if any original IDW characters get used in the DH comics, or events from the IDW comics get referenced in the DH comics, then many people may start thinking of the IDW comics as canon as well. And the canon-addicted folks (which seem to make up a large part of the fandom) will then buy the old IDW comics they were originally not interested in buying because they were not canon.

In short, IDW seems to be trying to make the best of things by working hard to make their stories "kind of" canon, and thus attract a new audience for which "canon" is a magic word. This is also the reason why I'm worried that DH may not be working as hard to fit the continuity together, because they don't have anything to gain from it as far as I can see. Certainly they don't seem to be interested in the good will of IDW or the IDW readers, as witnessed by this:

Allycat wrote:From the Dark Horse face book page: http://www.facebook.com/#!/posted.php?i ... comments=1#s138136499560786

The creative team for Dark Horse's 'Angel' series has not yet been announced. IDW's run on the character is not considered 'cannon' like Buffy Season 8 is, because Joss Whedon didn't have direct involvement with the stories. Buffy Season 8 ...is meant to be an extension of the television show, so everything that happens in Season 8 is part of the original continuity. Once we bring back 'Angel', Dark Horse will start to unveil plans as to how we'll bring all the characters together for Buffy Season 9, again with direct input from Joss Whedon.

Like the earlier Buffy material we published, readers should enjoy IDW's 'Angel' series, but when looking to fit a Joss-approved timeline to the characters, Buffy Season 8 is the only true continuation of the television series.


This makes my blood boil too. It's like DH is saying, "Try as you might, IDW, but you will never get canon status like us! Nah nah nah nah nah!" But yeah, let's follow Chris' advice and just ignore the intern.
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Postby JSPoole » Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:33 pm

Allycat wrote:From the Dark Horse face book page: http://www.facebook.com/#!/posted.php?i ... comments=1#s138136499560786


The creative team for Dark Horse's 'Angel' series has not yet been announced. IDW's run on the character is not considered 'cannon' like Buffy Season 8 is, because Joss Whedon didn't have direct involvement with the stories. Buffy Season 8 ...is meant to be an extension of the television show, so everything that happens in Season 8 is part of the original continuity. Once we bring back 'Angel', Dark Horse will start to unveil plans as to how we'll bring all the characters together for Buffy Season 9, again with direct input from Joss Whedon.

Like the earlier Buffy material we published, readers should enjoy IDW's 'Angel' series, but when looking to fit a Joss-approved timeline to the characters, Buffy Season 8 is the only true continuation of the television series.


It just boils my blood to see how arrogant they are. I get that this may not be the view of the entire company, but just some severely undertalented person in their PR department (they seem to have a lot of those)... but still.

Is this the same person who tweeted about "cannon" [sic] to me before?


I see after the fall, and most of other lynch's stuff, as cannon. and you know what? Joss and Dark Horse can claim it's not till they are blue in the fact, and I will smile and think ''la la la I cant hear you''.

Lynch's stuff especially has BLOWN the buffy comic, including Joss' stuff, completely out of the water. Honestly, canon or not- his stuff has smashed the stuffings out of the buffy comic in terms of quality.

so let them have their little canon status if they want - if they want that mediocre series to be official, well thats good with me anyway. I dont care because IDW gave me as a fan the angel ending I wanted, and it felt like it was true to the characters and show. so Joss and Dark Horse can say what they want, but for me, IDW's run will be the end of angel's stor.y

Hell I might eat my words, and I might hear so many amazing things about the dark horse series I would pick it up. But the chances of the same people who produced season 8 of buffy the mediocre comic...er vampire slayer doing that are about the same as me jumping on board a scott allie fan club right about now.

Thank you IDW, Brian lynch, Bill, Tipton and all the other writers your contributions to the angel series will NEVER be forgotten about by me, and I am sure many others here- no matter what. Let's have the last true year of angel go out with a bang.
Last edited by JSPoole on Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby JSPoole » Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:39 pm

I will also add that devisive and flawed as they may be, the last two arcs of angel by willingham and the arc before that were also MILES better than the buffy comic. I might not have fallen in love the same way I did the lynch arc, but they got me solid entertainment. which is another testament to what a good job idw is doing.
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Postby DanielW » Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:56 pm

Ryall's point still stands.
Whedon would know the difference between cannon (BOOM BOOM) and canon (a collection of works considered central to a concept or belief system and/or someone in upper-middle management in a Christian Church).

My biggest gripe is for all the comments about how "we're going to build off what was on TV" etc etc they then go to totally ignore everything that happen in Angel's own TV series in favour of making him (basically) Spike with nicer hair. A creepy stalker with a crush.

Angel moved on from Buffy. He fell in love with Cordy. He made a life for himself in LA. He became a better person in LA, less obsessed with his past and more "saving people" focused. That can be seen as a tribute to Buffy's influence. THAT all happened on TV.


Basically what Dark Horse is saying is "we're going to ignore everything that didn't happen on Buffy: The Vampire Slayer. Ohh and some of the stuff that happened there too (see Chosen, where Angel basically says " good luck, but I've got my own battles in LA")".
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Postby JSPoole » Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:04 pm

Oh I didn't mean to say his point didn't stand or anything.

(on a similar rant, it annoyed me to no end that when fray crossed over with buffy, fray, the more interesting character, was basically mistreated- buffy ends the fight with one back slap not even looking, when fray lived a t ougher life, and had to overcome more- realistically, fray should have slapped the pampered princess around. thats about the point I lost faith in the series- I have never found buffy all that likeable, more arrogant than anything, and her saving grace was always her supporting cast like spike, angel , willow, xander- and even those that appear in the comic are not handled that well).

But to be honest, canon is a strange beast when you are dealing with loved shows.

But I will say this, After The Fall in my view, is canon. I am not Joss, so I am aware no one will care if I see it as canon or not. But for me, it was the perfect ending to the story, and that is how I chose to see the story finishing.

even the stuff people are divided on in angel (the last two arcs) brought interesting ideas to the table. even if we loved or hated them and the new characters. there was no self indulgent sex issues, no cliched military as bad guys angle- just new things. didnt always work, but always were competently done.

Canon is also not as important to me as a good story. if something gets official blessing as canon and turns out to suck *cough*btvs8*cough* then I would still rather read something NON canon but is a great thrill ride with awesome characters and amazing moments that FEELS like it belongs in the show's history. Thats just me though.
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Postby Deborahmm » Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:10 pm

sulfur wrote:
Allycat wrote:Is this the same person who tweeted about "cannon" [sic] to me before?

Likely. I find it amusing the backpedaling they've started doing, especially since they talked about how Angel: After the Fall (1-17 I think) was considered canon, since Joss worked on that segment, but that the followup stuff was not (at this time) considered canon.


I find it amusing how they can't spell 'canon.' :) And Spike: Asylum will always be canon to me.
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