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Drop any comments about Joss Whedon's Angel, Spike or any of the related titles in this space, whether you have a soul or not.

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Postby Shin » Mon May 14, 2007 8:01 am

Nata wrote:
angeliclestat wrote:Would he have sacrificed them too?


I think he would have. Because, as I said before, he would have no way of saving that person anyway. It's either die together with him, or continue the mission to make the death of that person matter. And Angel was hell-bent on the mission.

And actually, we had a proof of that on screen. Angel didn't know who was under the sack - because BT members didn't know that either, they asked him afterwards who that was. He just was told he needed to do another sacrifice. So he was ready to kill whomever was in that sack.

As for maybe killing Spike but not an AI member - we also have proof that Spike sacrifice would worry him the most. When he was covering for Spike with "if you want me to kill him I may kiss you". He didn't cover for anybody else.

I don't think he would have sacrificed someone of his own team, he even asked them if they were in for the end. He knew it was Drogyn, because they showed him Drogyn before he bit him and also I don't think he was protecting Spike, just joking.
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Postby DihcarEM » Mon May 14, 2007 8:17 am

Nata wrote:I think he would have. Because, as I said before, he would have no way of saving that person anyway. It's either die together with him, or continue the mission to make the death of that person matter. And Angel was hell-bent on the mission.


You don't know that, yes Angel did say it but i think what was more important at the time was his plan. And he found Drogyn's life, his shanshu an accaptable loss, that goes to show you how dedicated he was to his cause. Could he have saved Drogyn? Maybe, but that would mean a failure of the mission. We all have choices and he chose his.
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Postby Nata » Mon May 14, 2007 8:33 am

Shin wrote: He knew it was Drogyn, because they showed him Drogyn before he bit him and also I don't think he was protecting Spike, just joking.


If you rewatch the scene with Drogyn you'll see how Angel was preparing himself to do this sacrifice. First we see Angel, grim and resigned, before the fire door. Then he jumps through the fire and sees a figure in the sack being beaten by BT members. Then he gets the sack off and only then he sees that it's Drogyn, and kills him. This entire sequence was his initiation. I.e. he was asked to go through the fire and kill someone close to him with BT members watching. He didn't know it was Drogan (because BT didn't know it either), but he was ready to kill whomever he finds there. He got himself ready to do it before he jumped through that door. And that makes BTs' test even more diabolical - because Angel didn't know whom he would be asked to sacrifice, and couldn't prepare.

As for whether Angel didn't see a chance of saving that person or willingly didn't take that chance - I agree, this is a grey area, open to interpretation. I think that he didn't see the chance, and if the odds weren't so against him he would go for the save. But it's just IMHO.

As for Angel joking casually with BT - come on, you got to be joking. :) Sorry for the pun. He was there undercover and nothing he said or did there was casual. His every movement and every word was calculated, and every second he was there he was playing BT. Or maybe he just happened to have the poison ring on his finger and was just flailing his arms casually when Pee-Pee demon stood nearby? No, he was on the mission and not on a casual dinner with friends. He'd never joke with BT members without a reason.
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Postby angeliclestat » Mon May 14, 2007 8:36 am

Nata wrote:
Shin wrote: He knew it was Drogyn, because they showed him Drogyn before he bit him and also I don't think he was protecting Spike, just joking.


If you rewatch the scene with Drogyn you'll see how Angel was preparing himself to do this sacrifice. First we see Angel, grim and resigned, before the fire door. Then he jumps through the fire and sees a figure in the sack being beaten by BT members. Then he gets the sack off and only then he sees that it's Drogyn, and kills him. This entire sequence was his initiation. I.e. he was asked to go through the fire and kill someone close to him with BT members watching. He didn't know it was Drogan (because BT didn't know it either), but he was ready to kill whomever he finds there. He got himself ready to do it before he jumped through that door. And that makes BTs' test even more diabolical - because Angel didn't know whom he would be asked to sacrifice, and couldn't prepare.

As for whether Angel didn't see a chance of saving that person or willingly didn't take that chance - I agree, this is a grey area, open to interpretation. I think that he didn't see the chance, and if the odds weren't so against him he would go for the save. But it's just IMHO.

As for Angel joking casually with BT - come on, you got to be joking. :) Sorry for the pun. He was there undercover and nothing he said or did there was casual. His every movement and every word was calculated, and every second he was there he was playing BT. Or maybe he just happened to have the poison ring on his finger and was just flailing his arms casually when Pee-Pee demon stood nearby? No, he was on the mission and not on a casual dinner with friends. He'd never joke with BT members without a reason.


I agree. I believe Angel was told that he would have to make a sacrifice. It could have been anyone. Luckily (if you know what I mean) it wasnt one of his gang. but I think he would have gone ahead with it if it was Wesley or Gunn or Spike.
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Postby Shin » Mon May 14, 2007 8:40 am

As for Angel joking casually with BT - come on, you got to be joking. Smile Sorry for the pun. He was there undercover and nothing he said or did there was casual. His every movement and every word was calculated, and every second he was there he was playing BT. Or maybe he just happened to have the poison ring on his finger and was just flailing his arms casually when Pee-Pee demon stood nearby? No, he was on the mission and not on a casual dinner with friends. He'd never joke with BT members without a reason.

I really think it was a joke to get them to be less tense and to try to get them of the direction of making him sacrifice something dear to him.
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Postby Nata » Mon May 14, 2007 8:48 am

Shin wrote:I really think it was a joke to get them to be less tense and to try to get them of the direction of making him sacrifice something dear to him.

Exactly! Looks like we are just saying the same thing in different ways. It was a calculated joke to take their minds off the sacrifice, to convince them he doesn't care for Spike at all and so with Spike it won't be a sacrifice, but a pleasure.
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Postby Deborahmm » Mon May 14, 2007 8:51 am

angeliclestat wrote:The Drogyn thing is a hard one.


I think it will have to be referenced in Season 6 in some way. He did kill someone. And as somebody mentioned...what if it had been one of the gang that had been brought to the Circle. Would he have sacrificed them too?


Aargh! What a horrible thought. I'm sort of glad we never got to find out.
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Postby Deborahmm » Mon May 14, 2007 8:53 am

Shin wrote:
angeliclestat wrote:The Drogyn thing is a hard one.


I think it will have to be referenced in Season 6 in some way. He did kill someone. And as somebody mentioned...what if it had been one of the gang that had been brought to the Circle. Would he have sacrificed them too?

If it were one of the gang he probably wouldn't have, unless it were Spike maybe.


Oh come on! I don't think that's very likely. I'd rather keep some of my illusions intact about Angel, one of which is that he wouldn't kill someone who was on his side, which Spike had been ever since the Illyria crisis blew up.
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Postby Shin » Mon May 14, 2007 8:54 am

Nata wrote:
Shin wrote:I really think it was a joke to get them to be less tense and to try to get them of the direction of making him sacrifice something dear to him.

Exactly! Looks like we are just saying the same thing in different ways. It was a calculated joke to take their minds off the sacrifice, to convince them he doesn't care for Spike at all and so with Spike it won't be a sacrifice, but a pleasure.

Not especially Spike, but he couldn't have said Wesley for an example, because that'd make no sense.
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Postby Deborahmm » Mon May 14, 2007 8:56 am

On the other hand, we know he can be a ruthless bastard.

:feels gloomy:
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Postby Shin » Mon May 14, 2007 9:00 am

Deborahmm wrote:
Shin wrote:
angeliclestat wrote:The Drogyn thing is a hard one.


I think it will have to be referenced in Season 6 in some way. He did kill someone. And as somebody mentioned...what if it had been one of the gang that had been brought to the Circle. Would he have sacrificed them too?

If it were one of the gang he probably wouldn't have, unless it were Spike maybe.


Oh come on! I don't think that's very likely. I'd rather keep some of my illusions intact about Angel, one of which is that he wouldn't kill someone who was on his side, which Spike had been ever since the Illyria crisis blew up.

I wasn't really serious about it, but if he had to kill someone of his own gang Spike would be the most likely.
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Postby angeliclestat » Mon May 14, 2007 9:01 am

Deborahmm wrote:On the other hand, we know he can be a ruthless bastard.

:feels gloomy:


Well it's something the series hadn't time to address. maybe Season 6 will or wont. but it's more of the ambiguity of the final episodes.


We'll find out soon if it was worth it!
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Postby Nata » Mon May 14, 2007 9:02 am

Shin wrote:Not especially Spike, but he couldn't have said Wesley for an example, because that'd make no sense.


How 'bout this: "If you say to kill Wesley, I'll just have to kiss you - I wanted to kill that bastard ever since he took my kid". Would make perfect sense, especially with Vail present.
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Postby angeliclestat » Mon May 14, 2007 9:07 am

Nata wrote:
Shin wrote:Not especially Spike, but he couldn't have said Wesley for an example, because that'd make no sense.


How 'bout this: "If you say to kill Wesley, I'll just have to kiss you - I wanted to kill that bastard ever since he took my kid". Would make perfect sense, especially with Vail present.


Heh Heh.....true....but the Spike version was funnier simply because of the little bit of friction that still exists between the two, no matter how much their relationship has come on.


Same with the comments in Origin:
Wesley: Illyria can be...difficult. Testing her might be hard without getting someone seriously hurt.
Angel: We'll make Spike do it.
Wesley: Good.

:)
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Postby Nata » Mon May 14, 2007 9:15 am

angeliclestat wrote:Heh Heh.....true....but the Spike version was funnier simply because of the little bit of friction that still exists between the two, no matter how much their relationship has come on.

Yes, that too, and BT would sure know about that friction. But actually, it was also because Wes and Gunn were already off the hook. Spike was the only one left to worry about, that's when Angel makes this joke (I seriously doubt Angel cares that much about Lorne).
It went like this: BTs said to Angel that they needed more from him, that his team worried them. Then Vail says - Wes is unstable, so it's OK (Angel marks him for Wes). Senator says - Gunn is too stable, but also shows promise (Angel marks her for Gunn). So they are both off the hook, and Angel anticipates that the next one will be Spike. And he tries to preempt that by telling them he doesn't care and hates his guts. Which they have reasons to believe. So yes, it was playing on their friction but also showed Angel's concern.
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